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Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Conclusion on persecution argument: being persecuted proves you are a Christian, not a leader

Mike's conclusion: the NT context never says persecution implies important leadership. It just implies being a Christian.

persecution argument
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Acts 22:3 — Paul 'at the feet of Gamaliel' does not prove everyone who sat at a teacher's feet became a rabbi

Mike questions whether the phrase necessarily means rabbinical training for every person who used it.

Acts 22:3 Acts 22:3 sat at the feet Gamaliel
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Argument 3 introduced: Universal priesthood of believers

Mike introduces the argument: since all NT believers are priests, and priestly functions include teaching and leading, women should be able to be elders.

eldership universal priesthood of believers
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

1 Peter 2:4-5 — all believers are a holy priesthood offering spiritual sacrifices

Mike begins building the biblical case for universal priesthood from 1 Peter.

1 Peter 2:4-5 universal priesthood of believers 1 Peter 2:4-5 spiritual sacrifices
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Revelation 1:5-6 — Jesus made us a kingdom and priests; includes all freed by his blood

Another proof text for universal priesthood.

Revelation 1:5-6 universal priesthood of believers Revelation 1:5-6
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Revelation 5:9-10 — those ransomed from every tribe are made a kingdom and priests

Mike continues building the universal priesthood case from Revelation.

Revelation 5:9-10 universal priesthood of believers Revelation 5:9-10
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Revelation 20:6 — all who share in the first resurrection are priests and will reign with Christ

Final priesthood proof text: men and women together in rulership and priesthood for the millennium.

Revelation 20:6 universal priesthood of believers Revelation 20:6 millennium
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

The Bible never speaks of a second tier of 'extra-priesty' people within the body of Christ

Mike emphasizes there is no second category of priests in the NT beyond the universal priesthood.

universal priesthood of believers clerical priesthood
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Grenz: the NT parallel to Levitical priesthood is the church as a whole, not ordained leaders

Grenz argues that the priesthood of all believers means the parallel to OT priests is all Christians, not just clergy.

Discovering Biblical Equality universal priesthood of believers Stanley Grenz
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Mike partially agrees with Grenz but warns against pushing the OT-NT priesthood parallel too far

Mike agrees that some functions of the Levitical priesthood transferred to all believers, but not everything transfers perfectly.

typology Stanley Grenz Levitical priesthood
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Anecdote: Mike challenged a female complementarian scholar at ETS about the universal priesthood problem in her argument

A female egalitarian (corrected: complementarian) scholar argued that priesthood is masculine in character and therefore women cannot hold pastoral positions. Mike asked her about the universal priesthood of believers.

universal priesthood of believers ETS (Evangelical Theological Society)
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Grenz's positive case: whoever is a priest should be able to be an elder

After Grenz dismantles the complementarian argument, he builds his own: women are priests, therefore they can be elders.

Discovering Biblical Equality universal priesthood of believers Stanley Grenz
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Priesthood is necessary but not sufficient for eldership

Mike proposes replacing 'irrelevant' with 'insufficient for' in Grenz's claim.

eldership qualifications necessary but not sufficient
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Grenz argues the Spirit's sovereign call and gifting, not gender, determines who can be an elder

Grenz's more detailed argument: since the Spirit calls believer-priests to ministry, gender cannot be an overriding disqualifying factor.

1 Corinthians 12:7 Discovering Biblical Equality Stanley Grenz 1 Corinthians 12:7
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Pushback 1: Not all priests can be elders — eldership has requirements beyond being a Christian

Mike's first rebuttal to Grenz: the Bible pragmatically refutes the argument by listing elder qualifications beyond priesthood.

1 Timothy 3 Titus 1 1 Timothy 3 eldership qualifications Titus 1
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Mike argues for obedience even if God's reasons seem offensive to culture

If one of the elder qualifications is being male, that may be offensive to our culture, but God has the right to set up His church as He sees fit.

divine authority cultural offense
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Hebrews 10:19-22 — believers can enter the holy places directly through Jesus's blood

Mike uses Hebrews to demonstrate that all believers have direct access to God without a mediator.

Hebrews 10:19-22 priesthood mediation Hebrews 10:19-22
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Correction for complementarians: the husband is NOT the priest of his home

Mike disagrees with many complementarians, including pastors he has respected, on this point.

headship universal priesthood of believers complementarian correction
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

What was uniquely priestly was the mediating function, which now belongs to all believers

Mike clarifies the distinction between priestly mediation and teaching.

1 Timothy 2 1 Timothy 3 Titus 1 1 Timothy 2 1 Timothy 3 eldership qualifications
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Argument 4 introduced: The prophecy argument — if women prophesied, they can teach and be elders

Mike introduces the fourth and one of the more challenging arguments. Women prophesied, prophecy is a high role with authority, therefore women can teach and be elders.

prophecy argument women prophesying
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

1 Corinthians 11 gives rules for how women should prophesy in public gatherings; Acts 2 / Joel 2 declares sons and daughters shall prophesy

Key NT evidence that women prophesied publicly in church gatherings.

1 Corinthians 11 Acts 2 Joel 2 1 Corinthians 11 Acts 2 women prophesying
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Complementarian claim that women only prophesied privately is an error

Some complementarians argue women had private prophetic revelation but never prophesied publicly.

Deborah Huldah Barak
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

1 Corinthians 11:4-5 gives parallel instructions for men and women prophesying in the same context

Mike reads the key text: men are told how to prophesy, and in the same breath women are told how to prophesy.

1 Corinthians 11:4-5 head coverings women prophesying 1 Corinthians 11:4-5
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

MacArthur's real basis: 1 Corinthians 14:34 (women keep silent) overrides the plain reading of 1 Corinthians 11

Mike identifies that MacArthur's position depends entirely on 1 Corinthians 14:34 controlling the meaning of chapter 11.

1 Corinthians 11 1 Corinthians 14:34 John MacArthur hermeneutics 1 Corinthians 11 1 Corinthians 14:34
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Important qualifiers: context, frequency, and whether a woman is functionally serving as an elder matter

Mike adds nuance about when teaching from a woman might cross a line.

functional eldership women teaching
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

The egalitarian move 'prophecy involves teaching, therefore all teaching is acceptable, therefore prophecy equals eldership' blurs God-given distinctions

Mike warns against the slippery-slope reasoning some egalitarians use.

1 Timothy 3 soft complementarianism 1 Timothy 3 prophecy argument
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Claim 3 analysis: Craig Keener argues prophecy carries authority that rivals eldership

Mike examines the third and strongest form of the prophecy argument.

Craig Keener influence vs. authority prophecy and authority
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Eldership is radically different from prophecy: anyone could prophesy instantly, but elders must meet extensive qualifications

Mike begins a detailed list of differences between prophecy and eldership.

1 Timothy 3 Titus 1 1 Timothy 3 eldership qualifications Titus 1
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Elders govern the church; prophets do not — prophets are not appointed to an ongoing office

Mike contrasts the governing authority of elders with the non-governing nature of prophets.

church governance prophet vs. elder office Bethel Church
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Prophecy is tested; the prophet has no authority over the evaluation of their own prophecy

Mike explains the testing process for prophecy per 1 Corinthians 14:29 and 1 John 4:1.

1 Corinthians 14:29 1 John 4:1 prophecy and authority 1 Corinthians 14:29 1 John 4:1
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

With elders, you test the man so the teaching will be pure; with prophecy, you test the prophecy because anyone can give one

Mike draws the fundamental distinction in how authority works for elders vs. prophets.

prophecy and authority testing the man vs. testing the word eldership authority
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Prophecy and eldership are very different: prophecy is passive, requires no qualifications or appointment, and the prophet has no ongoing authority

Mike summarizes the key differences that undermine the prophecy-equals-eldership argument.

prophecy vs. eldership
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Scripture places limits on women prophesying: they must acknowledge male headship (1 Corinthians 11) and may not judge prophecies (1 Corinthians 14)

Mike notes that even within prophecy, there are gender-specific limitations.

1 Corinthians 14 1 Corinthians 11 headship 1 Corinthians 14 1 Corinthians 11
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Conclusion on prophecy: it pushes back against banning women from public speech but does not support removing all eldership restrictions

Mike gives his balanced conclusion on the prophecy argument.

soft complementarianism prophecy argument complementarian correction
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Philip Payne's two-part argument: complementarians either assume God never gives women certain gifts OR they wrongly restrict those gifts

Mike presents Philip Payne's formulation of the gifts argument.

1 Corinthians 12:7 Philip Payne spiritual gifts argument 1 Corinthians 12:7
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Romans 12:6-8 — teaching and leading are listed as spiritual gifts alongside gifts women clearly have

Mike examines the gifts list in Romans 12 to determine whether women can have teaching and leadership gifts.

Romans 12:6-8 spiritual gifts teaching gift leadership gift
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

1 Corinthians 12:28 — 'administrating' (leadership) appears as a gift distinct from the office of teacher

Mike examines another gifts list.

1 Corinthians 12:28 apostles 1 Corinthians 12:28 kubernesis (administrating)
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Ephesians 4:11-12 is about offices (apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds/teachers) not about gifts applicable to the question

Mike examines Ephesians 4 but determines it is about offices, not gifts.

Ephesians 4:11-12 offices vs. gifts Ephesians 4:11-12 pastor-teacher
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

1 Corinthians 12:8-11 — speaking gifts (word of wisdom, word of knowledge, tongues, interpretation) seem available to women by analogy with prophecy

Mike examines another gifts list and finds it would be arbitrary to say women can prophesy but not have other speaking gifts.

1 Corinthians 12:8-11 1 Corinthians 12:8-11 word of wisdom word of knowledge
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

1 Peter 4:10-11 — 'whoever speaks' includes all speaking gifts and all are meant to be used

Mike cites 1 Peter to show gifts are meant to be used, not kept dormant.

1 Peter 4:10-11 spiritual gifts 1 Peter 4:10-11
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Mike's personal example: he served as youth pastor for 13 years and never functioned as senior pastor, yet his gifts were not limited

Mike uses his own ministry experience to show that gifts can be fully expressed outside the senior elder role.

Calvary Chapel youth ministry gifts expressed outside eldership
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Gifts do not seem gender-specific; leadership and teaching could be gifts women have

Mike's conclusion on the first part of the gifts argument.

apostles spiritual gifts offices vs. gifts
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Most Christians gifted in teaching are not elders — you can teach without being an elder

Mike challenges the assumption that having a gift requires the highest office to express it.

eldership teaching gift offices vs. gifts
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Not everyone who teaches is an elder — an elder must be able to teach, but ability to teach does not require eldership

Mike makes the logical distinction between necessary and sufficient conditions.

Colossians 3:16 Colossians 3:16 teaching gift necessary but not sufficient
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Colossians 3:16 — mutual teaching applies to all believers including women; Priscilla corrected Apollos

Mike argues that general mutual teaching and admonishing in the church includes women teaching men.

Colossians 3:16 Priscilla Apollos Colossians 3:16
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Romans 12:6-8 revisited — women were in every gift category except teaching/leading; it is arbitrary to exclude them from those two

Mike restates the argument from Romans 12 more explicitly.

Romans 12:6-8 spiritual gifts Romans 12:6-8
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

It would contradict clear passages to say women can never lead or teach, but the question is: in what realms?

Mike affirms women have gifts of teaching and leadership based on Scripture and personal observation.

necessary but not sufficient women teaching realms of ministry
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Egalitarian claim that women are 'kept from serving God according to their gifting' is wrong — most gifted teachers are not elders

Mike rebuts the claim that restricting eldership means restricting women's gifts.

spiritual gifts argument gifts expressed outside eldership
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

1 Corinthians 12:4-6 — there are 'varieties' of gifts, service, and activities; not all gifts are expressed the same way

Mike uses Paul's own language to show gifts are meant to be expressed in diverse ways.

1 Corinthians 12:4-6 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 varieties of ministry
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Rebutting Payne's 'for the common good' argument: Paul meant gifts should benefit others, not that all gifts must be expressed Sunday morning in front of everyone

Mike directly addresses Philip Payne's use of 1 Corinthians 12:7.

1 Corinthians 12:7 Philip Payne 1 Corinthians 12:7 common good
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