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Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

For egalitarians these role questions are easy; for complementarians they require nuance. Examples include women theologians like Nancy Pearcey and the debate over women seminary teachers (John Piper opposes it).

Scope of practical questions raised by this debate

John Piper complementarianism Nancy Pearcey John Piper
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Women as authors and book endorsements — Mike endorsed Natasha Crain's book 'Faithfully Different' and asks whether that endorsement is acceptable.

Scope of practical questions raised by this debate

Natasha Crain Faithfully Different women authors
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Additional practical questions: interviewing women, women on church boards, women evangelists, conference speakers, voting for a woman president, women as bosses, stay-at-home dads.

Scope of practical questions raised by this debate

gender roles practical application women in leadership
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Can a woman correct a man's theology? Can a woman serve communion? The uncertainty causes women to hold back even from things they could do.

Scope of practical questions raised by this debate

women correcting theology women serving communion soft complementarianism
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Video 4 will address women in the New Testament: women as apostles, elders, deacons, and teachers, including the Junia question.

Series overview and roadmap

women deacons Junia women apostles
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Video 9 will cover 1 Timothy 2 — the key complementarian passage about women not teaching or having authority over men, including the word authentein and the cult of Artemis.

Series overview and roadmap

1 Tim 2:12 authentein cult of Artemis
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Mistake #1: Using life experience to answer what the Bible says — 'I know I'm called' as a bypass of scripture.

Mistake #1: Life experience overriding scripture

bypassing scripture calling experience-based theology
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Life experience bypasses scripture on both sides: 'A woman pastor ministered to me' (egalitarian) or 'Women have frequently been false teachers' (complementarian).

Mistake #1: Life experience overriding scripture

bypassing scripture experience-based theology false teachers
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Rebuttal: women's submission is not comprehensive — Groothuis claims there is 'no area in which a woman has any authority, privilege, or opportunity that a man is denied,' which massively overstates complementarian claims.

Mistake #4: Rebutting 'comprehensive'

Rebecca Merrill Groothuis Discovering Biblical Equality comprehensive submission
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Many egalitarians expand male authority to its most monstrous extreme to make it intolerable, causing readers to reject complementarianism before ever reading the Bible.

Mistake #4: Egalitarian rhetorical strategy

bypassing scripture straw man argument egalitarian rhetoric
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Groothuis's argument only works against an extreme form of complementarianism that most complementarians would also reject — it attacks a straw man.

Mistake #4: Straw man critique

Rebecca Merrill Groothuis straw man argument relational submission
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Rebuttal: women's submission is not ontologically grounded — it is not rooted in women's nature making them inherently submissive.

Mistake #4: Rebutting 'ontologically grounded'

Rebecca Merrill Groothuis ontological grounding nature vs. assignment
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

If countless generations under Levitical role restrictions for hundreds of years is acceptable, why would one lifetime of gender-based role differences be dehumanizing?

Mistake #4: Levite analogy continued

Levites nature-based roles temporary vs. permanent
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Even if Groothuis is right philosophically, her conclusion explicitly blocks Bible reading — she says there can be 'no biblical or theological warrant' for women's submission, which pre-determines what the Bible is allowed to say.

Mistake #4: How Groothuis's argument bypasses scripture

bypassing scripture biblical authority Rebecca Merrill Groothuis
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Philip Payne's related argument in 'Man and Woman, One in Christ': if we are equal in Christ, we cannot exclude anyone from leadership based on gender.

Mistake #4: Payne's variant of the philosophical argument

Philip Payne Man and Woman, One in Christ equality in Christ
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Mistake #5: The argument that complementarianism leads to abuse and is therefore wrong — the most common argument Mike encounters.

Mistake #5: Complementarianism leads to abuse

domestic abuse complementarianism and abuse story-driven theology
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Beth Allison Barr's 'The Making of Biblical Womanhood' as a prime example of story-driven theology — the book frames the entire discussion through personal pain and church hurt.

Mistake #5: Critique of Beth Allison Barr's book

church hurt story-driven theology Beth Allison Barr
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Barr equates complementarianism with abuse — 'you cannot separate the issues' — making the book about stories creating theology rather than understanding scripture in context.

Mistake #5: Critique of Beth Allison Barr's book

complementarianism and abuse Beth Allison Barr The Making of Biblical Womanhood
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Barr uses the story of a rude complementarian male student to overrule Russell Moore's distinction between pagan patriarchy and biblical complementarianism.

Mistake #5: Barr's story overruling theological argument

story-driven theology Beth Allison Barr The Making of Biblical Womanhood
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Mistake #7: Picking one passage to rule all the rest — both sides do this, creating contradictions within the Bible rather than seeking unified understanding.

Mistake #7: One passage rules the rest

1 Tim 2:12 proof-texting canonical consistency
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

The general complementarian approach sees Genesis 2 showing husband's leadership role, confirmed in Genesis 3; the egalitarian approach says authority only appears in Genesis 3 as part of the curse.

Overview of the two interpretive frameworks for Genesis 2-3

male authority Gen 2 Gen 3
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Mary Conway's argument that all plural imperative verbs in Genesis 1:28 include both man and woman with no restriction on any activity, including dominion.

Egalitarian argument from Genesis 1

Discovering Biblical Equality Gen 1:28 Mary Conway
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Mike's application: limiting women to housework wrongly restricts the dominion mandate of Genesis 1; women should be inventors, farmers, engineers, entrepreneurs, etc.

Practical application of Genesis 1's shared dominion

dominion mandate women's roles women and work
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Biblical examples of women who worked outside the home: Proverbs 31 woman (entrepreneur), Lydia (businesswoman), Priscilla (tentmaker).

Biblical counter-examples to women-only-at-home view

Prov 31 Lydia Priscilla
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Genesis 1 focuses on humanity's relationship to creation; Genesis 2 focuses on the relationship between man and woman, especially husband and wife.

Transition from Genesis 1 to Genesis 2

Gen 2 Gen 1 dominion vs. marital roles
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Philip Payne's egalitarian argument: 'bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh' emphasizes shared essence and kinship, never subordination.

Egalitarian interpretation of Genesis 2:23

Philip Payne Man and Woman, One in Christ Gen 2:23
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Payne's second argument: the man (not the woman) leaves father and mother, which implies equality rather than male authority.

Egalitarian argument from Genesis 2:24

Philip Payne Man and Woman, One in Christ Gen 2:24
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Payne correctly refutes a bad complementarian argument that God naming the human race 'man' (adam) in Genesis 5:2 implies male leadership.

Payne identifies a weak complementarian argument

Philip Payne adam Gen 5:2
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

1 Timothy 2:12-13 as New Testament commentary on Genesis 2: Paul draws on Adam being formed first as relevant to male-female relationships.

NT support for creation order argument

creation order 1 Tim 2:12-13 Paul
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Philip Payne's overreach: calling 'ezer' 'rescuer' and Eve 'man's savior' goes too far in the other direction.

Egalitarian overreach on 'ezer'

Philip Payne Man and Woman, One in Christ ezer
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Rescuing the 'helper' argument: it's not the word 'ezer' but the whole flow of Genesis 2 -- Eve is made FOR Adam, which Paul interprets as implying leadership in 1 Corinthians 11:7-10.

Reframing the helper argument via the narrative flow

Gen 2 Paul 1 Cor 11:7-10
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Schreiner's point 4: Adam exercised leadership by naming Eve -- first as 'woman' (isha) in Genesis 2:23, then as 'Eve' in Genesis 3:20.

Complementarian argument #4: naming as authority

Tom Schreiner Gen 2:23 ish
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Phyllis Trible's objection to the naming argument: naming requires both 'call' and 'name' together in the sentence; Gen 2:23 lacks this formula.

Egalitarian counter-argument to naming = authority

Gen 2:23 Phyllis Trible Gen 4:17
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Schreiner's response to Trible: demanding both 'call' and 'name' is too rigid; the repetition of 'qara' (call) in Gen 2:19-23 links animal naming to Eve's naming.

Complementarian rebuttal on naming formula

Tom Schreiner Phyllis Trible qara
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Trible's second objection: 'woman' is a common noun (gender classification), not a proper name -- Schreiner's reply: Adam classified animals the same way (types, not personal names).

Complementarian rebuttal on naming as classification

Tom Schreiner Gen 2:23 Phyllis Trible
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Mike's four problems with Ramsey's paper: (1) ignores Genesis 1-2 context, (2) confuses WHY a name was chosen with WHY Adam does the naming, (3) argues against magical naming instead of actual complementarian claims, (4) ignores that namers consistently have authority over the named.

Critique of Ramsey's paper on naming

Gen 2 false dichotomy naming as authority
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Payne's final pushback on naming: the primary message of Gen 2:18-20 is that no animal is a suitable partner, not that Adam names things; and Adam is passive during Eve's creation.

Payne's attempt to minimize the naming significance

Philip Payne Man and Woman, One in Christ Gen 2:18-20
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Reading of Genesis 3:1-20 covering the serpent's temptation, the fall, God confronting Adam first, the curses on serpent/woman/man, and the proto-evangelium.

Genesis 3 text reading

Gen 3:16 the fall Gen 3:1-20
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Schreiner appeals to 1 Timothy 2:14 ('Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived') to support point 5 -- Mike thinks the verse can be explained without the subversion-of-authority reading.

NT support for serpent-targeting-Eve argument

Tom Schreiner 1 Tim 2:14 Eve's deception
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Mike's critique of Payne's chiasm: it's overly complex (A-B-C-D-E-F-E-D-C-B-A), doesn't feel natural, and even if valid, doesn't negate the authority implications.

Rebuttal to Payne's chiastic structure argument

Philip Payne Man and Woman, One in Christ Gen 3
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Bad complementarian argument #2: Adam's sin was 'listening to his wife' -- Mike refutes this; the problem was the content (eating the fruit), not the act of listening to a woman.

Bad complementarian arguments

bad complementarian arguments Gen 3:17 listening to wife
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Mike's critique of Belleville's sexual desire interpretation: it doesn't describe a recognizable perennial problem for women and doesn't feel like a curse.

Problems with the sexual desire interpretation

Linda Belleville Gen 3:16 sexual desire interpretation
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Belleville's interpretation #2: translate 'he shall rule' as 'it shall rule' (neuter) -- the woman's own desire will rule over her, removing the husband's authority entirely.

Belleville's alternative translation of Gen 3:16

Linda Belleville Gen 3:16 Craig Blomberg
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Analysis of 'teshukah' (desire): lexicons show it could mean sexual desire or desire to dominate; it appears only 3 times in the OT.

Hebrew word study on 'desire' in Gen 3:16

Song 7:10 Gen 3:16 teshukah Gen 4:7
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

NET Bible note supports the control interpretation: Gen 3:16 announces a power struggle where the woman desires to control the man but the man will dominate her instead.

Scholarly support for the control/conflict interpretation

Song 7:10 Gen 3:16 Gen 4:7 Song 7:10
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Mike's conclusion on Gen 3:16: Eve's desire is to rule/control her husband, but the husband will rule over her -- this is NOT a healthy or ideal situation; it's a description of the fall's consequences.

Mike's interpretation of Genesis 3:16

Gen 3:16 curse vs. prescription description vs. prescription
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Mike's view: before the fall there was harmonious, tensionless leadership; now the curse introduces conflict -- the solution is alleviating abuse, not eliminating the nature of authority.

Mike's synthesis of Genesis 2-3 on authority

Gen 3:16 Gen 2 post-fall conflict
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Ephesians 5 as the solution to the curse: self-sacrificial love from husband, voluntary submission from wife, both acting in service to God.

NT solution to the Genesis 3 curse dynamic

Eph 5 voluntary submission self-sacrificial love
Mike Winger idea 2022-04-13

NT Wright's egalitarian argument: women as apostles to the apostles

Mike plays a clip from NT Wright presenting the egalitarian case for women leaders.

Romans 16 Junia women apostles Mary Magdalene
Mike Winger idea 2022-04-13

NT Wright on Romans 16: women as church leaders and Phoebe as letter bearer

Continuation of Wright's argument about Romans 16.

Romans 16 Romans 16:1-2 Junia N.T. Wright Romans 16
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