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All (1698) Mike Winger (1698)
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Broader context of 1 Corinthians 11-14 confirms it is about gathered worship: Lord's Supper and spiritual gifts in church

Mike appeals to the wider literary context to confirm his reading.

1 Corinthians 11:17-34 1 Corinthians 12-14 1 Corinthians 14:3-4 1 Corinthians 11:17-34 1 Corinthians 12-14 1 Corinthians 14:3-4
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

MacArthur's conclusion quoted and rejected: 'women may have the gift of prophecy but normally are not to prophesy where men are present'

Mike quotes MacArthur's specific position and says the rule 'seems wrong.'

1 Corinthians 14:34 John MacArthur women prophesying Philip's daughters 1 Corinthians 14:34
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Key distinction: Scripture limits HOW women prophesy, not WHERE or WHEN

Mike summarizes his position on women and prophecy.

1 Corinthians 11 1 Corinthians 11 women prophesying how vs. where
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Claim 2 analysis: Prophecy is similar enough to teaching that women should be able to teach in mixed gatherings

Mike now analyzes the second egalitarian claim from women prophesying.

1 Corinthians 14:31 soft complementarianism 1 Corinthians 14:31 prophecy and teaching
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Prophecy is NOT teaching — the Bible consistently keeps them in separate categories

Mike's key pushback: while prophecy may involve elements of teaching, they are distinct categories in Scripture.

eldership prophecy and teaching biblical categories
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Important qualifiers: context, frequency, and whether a woman is functionally serving as an elder matter

Mike adds nuance about when teaching from a woman might cross a line.

functional eldership women teaching
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

The egalitarian move 'prophecy involves teaching, therefore all teaching is acceptable, therefore prophecy equals eldership' blurs God-given distinctions

Mike warns against the slippery-slope reasoning some egalitarians use.

1 Timothy 3 soft complementarianism 1 Timothy 3 prophecy argument
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Claim 3 analysis: Craig Keener argues prophecy carries authority that rivals eldership

Mike examines the third and strongest form of the prophecy argument.

Craig Keener influence vs. authority prophecy and authority
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Pushback on Keener: influence is not the only issue — no complementarian should limit women's influence

Mike argues that the issue is not about influence but about a specific authority role.

Deborah Priscilla Mary Magdalene
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Do not be allergic to women having influence — that is what gives complementarians a reputation for insecurity

Mike addresses complementarian men directly.

complementarian correction women's influence
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Influence is not the same as eldership — a governor has massive influence but is not your church elder

Mike uses analogies to distinguish influence from the specific authority of eldership.

eldership influence vs. authority
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Eldership is radically different from prophecy: anyone could prophesy instantly, but elders must meet extensive qualifications

Mike begins a detailed list of differences between prophecy and eldership.

1 Timothy 3 Titus 1 1 Timothy 3 eldership qualifications Titus 1
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Elders govern the church; prophets do not — prophets are not appointed to an ongoing office

Mike contrasts the governing authority of elders with the non-governing nature of prophets.

church governance prophet vs. elder office Bethel Church
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Prophecy is tested; the prophet has no authority over the evaluation of their own prophecy

Mike explains the testing process for prophecy per 1 Corinthians 14:29 and 1 John 4:1.

1 Corinthians 14:29 1 John 4:1 prophecy and authority 1 Corinthians 14:29 1 John 4:1
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

With elders, you test the man so the teaching will be pure; with prophecy, you test the prophecy because anyone can give one

Mike draws the fundamental distinction in how authority works for elders vs. prophets.

prophecy and authority testing the man vs. testing the word eldership authority
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Prophecy is passive in nature — the prophet is not supposed to speak beyond what God gave them

Mike cites Craig Keener in support of this point about the passive nature of prophecy.

2 Samuel 7 David Craig Keener Nathan
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Keener himself acknowledges prophets had 'no authority outside of their message'

Mike uses Keener's own words to push back on other egalitarians who argue prophecy equals authority.

Craig Keener prophecy and authority Nathan
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Prophecy and eldership are very different: prophecy is passive, requires no qualifications or appointment, and the prophet has no ongoing authority

Mike summarizes the key differences that undermine the prophecy-equals-eldership argument.

prophecy vs. eldership
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Scripture places limits on women prophesying: they must acknowledge male headship (1 Corinthians 11) and may not judge prophecies (1 Corinthians 14)

Mike notes that even within prophecy, there are gender-specific limitations.

1 Corinthians 14 1 Corinthians 11 headship 1 Corinthians 14 1 Corinthians 11
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Conclusion on prophecy: it pushes back against banning women from public speech but does not support removing all eldership restrictions

Mike gives his balanced conclusion on the prophecy argument.

soft complementarianism prophecy argument complementarian correction
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Argument 5 introduced: The spiritual gifts argument — God gifts women with the same gifts as men

Mike introduces the fifth and final argument, which he considers the strongest of the day.

spiritual gifts argument teaching gift leadership gift
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Philip Payne's two-part argument: complementarians either assume God never gives women certain gifts OR they wrongly restrict those gifts

Mike presents Philip Payne's formulation of the gifts argument.

1 Corinthians 12:7 Philip Payne spiritual gifts argument 1 Corinthians 12:7
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Romans 12:6-8 — teaching and leading are listed as spiritual gifts alongside gifts women clearly have

Mike examines the gifts list in Romans 12 to determine whether women can have teaching and leadership gifts.

Romans 12:6-8 spiritual gifts teaching gift leadership gift
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

1 Corinthians 12:28 — 'administrating' (leadership) appears as a gift distinct from the office of teacher

Mike examines another gifts list.

1 Corinthians 12:28 apostles 1 Corinthians 12:28 kubernesis (administrating)
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Ephesians 4:11-12 is about offices (apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds/teachers) not about gifts applicable to the question

Mike examines Ephesians 4 but determines it is about offices, not gifts.

Ephesians 4:11-12 offices vs. gifts Ephesians 4:11-12 pastor-teacher
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

1 Corinthians 12:8-11 — speaking gifts (word of wisdom, word of knowledge, tongues, interpretation) seem available to women by analogy with prophecy

Mike examines another gifts list and finds it would be arbitrary to say women can prophesy but not have other speaking gifts.

1 Corinthians 12:8-11 1 Corinthians 12:8-11 word of wisdom word of knowledge
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

1 Peter 4:10-11 — 'whoever speaks' includes all speaking gifts and all are meant to be used

Mike cites 1 Peter to show gifts are meant to be used, not kept dormant.

1 Peter 4:10-11 spiritual gifts 1 Peter 4:10-11
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Women gifted in teaching should use that gift — find ways that honor biblical limitations

Mike counsels pastors on how to handle gifted women in their churches.

women teaching practical ministry application
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Mike's personal example: he served as youth pastor for 13 years and never functioned as senior pastor, yet his gifts were not limited

Mike uses his own ministry experience to show that gifts can be fully expressed outside the senior elder role.

Calvary Chapel youth ministry gifts expressed outside eldership
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Gifts do not seem gender-specific; leadership and teaching could be gifts women have

Mike's conclusion on the first part of the gifts argument.

apostles spiritual gifts offices vs. gifts
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Most Christians gifted in teaching are not elders — you can teach without being an elder

Mike challenges the assumption that having a gift requires the highest office to express it.

eldership teaching gift offices vs. gifts
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Second part of gifts argument: Philip Payne says gifts are 'for the common good' so you cannot restrict who a woman teaches

Mike addresses the more challenging claim from Payne.

1 Corinthians 12:7 Philip Payne 1 Corinthians 12:7 common good
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Titus 2:3-5 — older women are to teach younger women; a biblical case for women's teaching ministry outside eldership

Mike provides a scriptural example of women teaching in appropriate contexts.

Titus 2:3-5 Titus 2:3-5 women's ministry women teaching
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Not everyone who teaches is an elder — an elder must be able to teach, but ability to teach does not require eldership

Mike makes the logical distinction between necessary and sufficient conditions.

Colossians 3:16 Colossians 3:16 teaching gift necessary but not sufficient
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Colossians 3:16 — mutual teaching applies to all believers including women; Priscilla corrected Apollos

Mike argues that general mutual teaching and admonishing in the church includes women teaching men.

Colossians 3:16 Priscilla Apollos Colossians 3:16
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Romans 12:6-8 revisited — women were in every gift category except teaching/leading; it is arbitrary to exclude them from those two

Mike restates the argument from Romans 12 more explicitly.

Romans 12:6-8 spiritual gifts Romans 12:6-8
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

It would contradict clear passages to say women can never lead or teach, but the question is: in what realms?

Mike affirms women have gifts of teaching and leadership based on Scripture and personal observation.

necessary but not sufficient women teaching realms of ministry
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Egalitarian claim that women are 'kept from serving God according to their gifting' is wrong — most gifted teachers are not elders

Mike rebuts the claim that restricting eldership means restricting women's gifts.

spiritual gifts argument gifts expressed outside eldership
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

1 Corinthians 12:4-6 — there are 'varieties' of gifts, service, and activities; not all gifts are expressed the same way

Mike uses Paul's own language to show gifts are meant to be expressed in diverse ways.

1 Corinthians 12:4-6 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 varieties of ministry
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Ministry positions should be shaped around people's gifts, not forcing people into existing roles

Mike offers a practical ministry philosophy digression.

ministry philosophy shaping roles around gifts
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Rebutting Payne's 'for the common good' argument: Paul meant gifts should benefit others, not that all gifts must be expressed Sunday morning in front of everyone

Mike directly addresses Philip Payne's use of 1 Corinthians 12:7.

1 Corinthians 12:7 Philip Payne 1 Corinthians 12:7 common good
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Stanley Grenz argues 'the integral relation between gifts and ministry' means the church must give place for the giftedness of all persons

Mike quotes another egalitarian scholar's version of the gifts argument.

Discovering Biblical Equality spiritual gifts argument Stanley Grenz
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Grenz presumes (1) teaching and leadership can only find true expression in eldership — Mike disagrees

Mike identifies the first false premise in Grenz's argument.

1 Corinthians 12:4-6 Stanley Grenz gifts expressed outside eldership 1 Corinthians 12:4-6
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Grenz presumes (2) gifts are the ONLY requirement for eldership — Scripture clearly gives additional requirements including gender

Mike identifies the second false premise.

1 Timothy 3 Titus 1 1 Timothy 3 Stanley Grenz eldership qualifications
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Summary of gifts argument: women likely have teaching/leadership gifts, no scripture limits those gifts by gender, but limitations are on who can be an elder specifically

Mike summarizes his conclusions from the gifts argument.

eldership spiritual gifts argument
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Why gifts do not translate to eldership: (1) one can teach and lead outside eldership; (2) the restriction is gender-based, not gift-based; (3) gifting alone cannot be sufficient for appointment

Mike gives three reasons why the gifts argument fails to establish women as elders.

spiritual gifts argument eldership qualifications gender-based restriction
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Tom Schreiner quote: complementarians should not give the impression women are unintelligent or lack teaching ability

Mike quotes a fellow complementarian to correct unhealthy attitudes toward women's teaching.

Colossians 3:16 1 Corinthians 14:26 Tom Schreiner Apollos Colossians 3:16
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Bias against women's teaching comes from women too, not just men

Mike points out that the attitude that women cannot correct men is held by some women as well.

women teaching gender bias
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Rebutting Philip Payne's use of Colossians 3:16 to claim all Christians should have a teaching ministry

Mike addresses Payne's argument that Colossians 3:16 proves every woman should have a teaching ministry.

Colossians 3:16 Philip Payne Colossians 3:16 teaching ministry
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

1 Corinthians 12:29-30 — Paul's rhetorical questions show not everyone is supposed to teach

Mike cites Paul's own words against the idea that all Christians should have a teaching ministry.

1 Corinthians 12:29-30 Philip Payne teaching ministry 1 Corinthians 12:29-30
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