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Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Quote from Discovering Biblical Equality: complementarianism is 'by definition a system of permanently unequal power distribution' that creates conditions under which abuse flourishes.

Mistake #5: Academic version of the abuse argument

Discovering Biblical Equality domestic abuse complementarianism and abuse
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Mike's rebuttal: the argument that complementarianism causally relates to domestic violence does not pass the 'smell test' when applied consistently to other authority structures.

Mistake #5: Rebuttal via analogy

government analogy authority structures logical consistency
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Extending the analogy: church authority has been abused, boss-employee relationships have been abusive — should we abolish all authority structures?

Mistake #5: Rebuttal via analogy continued

authority structures Ed Citronelli church abuse
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Both egalitarians and complementarians agree that Genesis 1-3 is theologically foundational for understanding male-female relationships.

Establishing common ground between the two sides

Gen 1-3 Discovering Biblical Equality Mary Conway
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Genesis 1:26-28 read and analyzed: the Hebrew word 'adam' refers to mankind (male and female), not just the male.

Genesis 1 analysis -- the creation passage

adam Gen 1:26-28 mankind terminology
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Two types of egalitarian arguments for Genesis 2: negative case (refuting complementarian points) or positive case (Genesis 2 rules out authority differences).

Framework for evaluating egalitarian arguments

Gen 2 negative vs. positive case egalitarian hermeneutics
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

The real point of 'leaving father and mother' is that the marriage relationship takes priority over the parental relationship.

Mike's interpretation of Genesis 2:24

Gen 2:24 marriage priority family unit
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Payne correctly refutes a bad complementarian argument that God naming the human race 'man' (adam) in Genesis 5:2 implies male leadership.

Payne identifies a weak complementarian argument

Philip Payne adam Gen 5:2
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Mike's refutation of Trible: 'adam' is never used as 'earth creature' in Hebrew; in Genesis 2 it always refers to a male; and Genesis 2:23 ('ish') proves Adam was already male.

Refuting Trible's sexually undifferentiated adam theory

adam Phyllis Trible Gen 2:22-23
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Linda Belleville's argument: Genesis 2 speaks of order and source, not authority -- Mike's rebuttal: these aren't mutually exclusive; primogeniture is precisely about order implying authority.

Egalitarian counter-argument from Belleville

Linda Belleville Gen 2 order and source
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Schreiner's point 3: Eve called Adam's 'ezer' (helper) -- complementarians argue this implies subordination, but Mike finds the egalitarian rebuttal strong on this point.

The 'ezer' (helper) debate

Tom Schreiner ezer kenegdo
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Linda Belleville's argument: every other OT use of 'ezer' has no connotation of submission; God himself is most commonly called 'ezer' in Scripture.

Egalitarian case that 'ezer' doesn't imply subordination

Linda Belleville ezer Hos 13:9
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Schreiner's point 4: Adam exercised leadership by naming Eve -- first as 'woman' (isha) in Genesis 2:23, then as 'Eve' in Genesis 3:20.

Complementarian argument #4: naming as authority

Tom Schreiner Gen 2:23 ish
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Schreiner's response to Trible: demanding both 'call' and 'name' is too rigid; the repetition of 'qara' (call) in Gen 2:19-23 links animal naming to Eve's naming.

Complementarian rebuttal on naming formula

Tom Schreiner Phyllis Trible qara
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Trible's second objection: 'woman' is a common noun (gender classification), not a proper name -- Schreiner's reply: Adam classified animals the same way (types, not personal names).

Complementarian rebuttal on naming as classification

Tom Schreiner Gen 2:23 Phyllis Trible
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Ephesians 5 as the solution to the curse: self-sacrificial love from husband, voluntary submission from wife, both acting in service to God.

NT solution to the Genesis 3 curse dynamic

Eph 5 voluntary submission self-sacrificial love
Mike Winger idea 2022-04-13

Central egalitarian claim: hosting a house church made you the leader/overseer of that church

Mike identifies this as a pervasive claim that recurs throughout egalitarian literature.

Linda Belleville hosting vs. leading overseer
Mike Winger idea 2022-04-13

Priscilla's teaching was doctrinal but private and informal, not public elder-type teaching

Mike distinguishes what Priscilla's teaching was from what it was not.

Acts 18:26 Priscilla private vs. public teaching eldership teaching
Mike Winger idea 2022-04-13

Fishing analogy: egalitarians reel in 'false positives' for women in leadership

Mike uses an analogy to describe the egalitarian evidence pattern.

false positives in exegesis egalitarian evidence critique
Mike Winger idea 2022-04-13

Elder, overseer, bishop, and presbyter are all the same biblical role

Mike clarifies terminology before discussing eldership requirements.

overseer episkopos elder
Mike Winger idea 2022-04-13

The term 'pastor' is used in confusing ways; may describe deacon-level work

Mike distinguishes between the biblical office and modern church usage.

pastor vs. elder vs. deacon church terminology
Mike Winger idea 2022-04-13

The unique elder requirement: able to teach -- distinguishes elders from deacons

Mike highlights what makes elder requirements distinct.

1 Timothy 3:2 able to teach didaktikos elder vs. deacon distinction
Mike Winger idea 2022-04-13

Philip Payne's argument from Colossians 3:16: all Christians should have a teaching ministry -- refuted

Mike addresses another egalitarian argument about women teachers.

Colossians 3:16 Philip Payne Colossians 3:16 teaching and admonishing
Mike Winger idea 2022-04-13

Survey of 12 translations on prostatis: all say patron/helper/benefactor; only Passion Translation says 'leader'

Mike checks major English translations to see if any support Payne's reading.

Romans 16:2 Philip Payne Phoebe prostatis
Mike Winger idea 2022-04-13

'Faithful in all things' as a catch-all summarizing remaining deacon requirements for women

Mike explains why the women's requirements are slightly shorter.

1 Timothy 3:11 women deacons 1 Timothy 3:11 faithful in all things
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-09

Translation survey: inclusive vs. exclusive renderings of Romans 16:7

Mike surveys how various English translations handle the phrase.

Romans 16:7 Romans 16:7 Bible translations NKJV
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-09

Payne's claim that Junia had 'authority as ministers of the gospel' is vague

Mike responds to Payne's claim about authority.

Philip Payne authority in ministry Great Commission
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-09

Burer and Wallace 2001 paper defending exclusive reading of Romans 16:7

Mike introduces a key scholarly paper challenging the consensus.

Romans 16:7 Daniel Wallace Romans 16:7 Michael Burer Daniel Wallace
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-09

Richard Bauckham's rebuttal in Gospel Women

Mike introduces the main scholarly pushback against Burer-Wallace.

Craig Blomberg Burer-Wallace paper (2001) Richard Bauckham
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-09

Bauckham reevaluated examples but brought no new counter-evidence

Mike notes a limitation in Bauckham's rebuttal.

church fathers Richard Bauckham scholarly methodology
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-09

Michael Burer's 2015 response paper with new evidence

Mike introduces a third round of scholarly debate that he thinks is underappreciated.

Romans 16:7 Linda Belleville Romans 16:7 Michael Burer
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-09

The office of apostle involves more than witnessing the resurrection

Mike distinguishes the office of apostle from mere witness.

1 Corinthians Mary Magdalene apostolic office apostolic commission
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-09

Egalitarian response: cultural reasons prevented women apostles

Mike presents and critiques the standard egalitarian counter-argument.

Craig Keener women in ministry debate cultural acquiescence argument
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-09

Unfalsifiability problem: can we distinguish God's design from cultural accommodation?

Mike challenges the egalitarian method at its core.

cultural accommodation unfalsifiable theory God's design for leadership
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-09

Jesus chose apostles unlikely to be culturally accepted

Mike argues Jesus did not choose apostles based on cultural acceptability.

Matthew/tax collector Jesus' choice of apostles Matthew/tax collector Galilean fishermen
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Mike spent 12 hours searching for Kenneth Bailey's source material and could not find it

N.T. Wright's citation of Kenneth Bailey has no footnotes or bibliography. Mike tried to find Bailey's original argument in his books, papers, and Google Scholar.

N.T. Wright Kenneth Bailey scholarly sourcing
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Acts 26:9-11 shows Paul persecuted 'many of the saints,' not leaders specifically

Mike reads Acts 26:9-11 where Paul describes persecuting 'many of the saints,' punishing them 'in every synagogue,' and compelling them to blaspheme.

Acts 26:9-11 persecution argument Acts 26:9-11 Paul/Saul
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

There is no select group of priests within the body of Christ in the New Testament

Mike explains that the concept of a special clerical priesthood arose from culture and church history, not from the NT or apostolic teaching.

presbyter priesthood Roman Catholicism
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Grenz's positive case: whoever is a priest should be able to be an elder

After Grenz dismantles the complementarian argument, he builds his own: women are priests, therefore they can be elders.

Discovering Biblical Equality universal priesthood of believers Stanley Grenz
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Priesthood means no one mediates between you and God; this is different from teaching

Mike now builds his positive case for what priesthood means for Christians and why it does not equate to eldership.

1 Timothy 2:5 priesthood mediation 1 Timothy 2:5
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Survey of women who prophesied in the Bible: Miriam, Huldah, Deborah, Isaiah's wife, Anna, Philip's four daughters

Mike establishes that women clearly prophesied throughout the Bible, both in the OT and NT.

Isaiah's wife Luke 2 Acts 21:9 Deborah women prophesying Miriam
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

1 Corinthians 11:4-5 gives parallel instructions for men and women prophesying in the same context

Mike reads the key text: men are told how to prophesy, and in the same breath women are told how to prophesy.

1 Corinthians 11:4-5 head coverings women prophesying 1 Corinthians 11:4-5
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Influence is not the same as eldership — a governor has massive influence but is not your church elder

Mike uses analogies to distinguish influence from the specific authority of eldership.

eldership influence vs. authority
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

1 Corinthians 12:8-11 — speaking gifts (word of wisdom, word of knowledge, tongues, interpretation) seem available to women by analogy with prophecy

Mike examines another gifts list and finds it would be arbitrary to say women can prophesy but not have other speaking gifts.

1 Corinthians 12:8-11 1 Corinthians 12:8-11 word of wisdom word of knowledge
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Not everyone who teaches is an elder — an elder must be able to teach, but ability to teach does not require eldership

Mike makes the logical distinction between necessary and sufficient conditions.

Colossians 3:16 Colossians 3:16 teaching gift necessary but not sufficient
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Colossians 3:16 — mutual teaching applies to all believers including women; Priscilla corrected Apollos

Mike argues that general mutual teaching and admonishing in the church includes women teaching men.

Colossians 3:16 Priscilla Apollos Colossians 3:16
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Why gifts do not translate to eldership: (1) one can teach and lead outside eldership; (2) the restriction is gender-based, not gift-based; (3) gifting alone cannot be sufficient for appointment

Mike gives three reasons why the gifts argument fails to establish women as elders.

spiritual gifts argument eldership qualifications gender-based restriction
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Rebutting Philip Payne's use of Colossians 3:16 to claim all Christians should have a teaching ministry

Mike addresses Payne's argument that Colossians 3:16 proves every woman should have a teaching ministry.

Colossians 3:16 Philip Payne Colossians 3:16 teaching ministry
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

The English word 'priest' comes from Greek 'presbyter' (elder), not the actual Greek word for priest

Mike explains etymological confusion between priest and elder.

etymology presbyter hiereus
Mike Winger idea 2022-06-20

Decision to focus analysis on Cynthia Westfall's chapter in Discovering Biblical Equality

Mike explains why he chose Westfall's work as the primary egalitarian argument to engage.

Philip Payne Discovering Biblical Equality Cynthia Long Westfall
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