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Mike explains why he avoided answering women-in-ministry questions for years — he worried he had not been exposed to strong egalitarian arguments due to his complementarian upbringing.

complementarianism egalitarianism

Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Argument 1 detail: N.T. Wright's persecution argument from 'Surprised by Scripture'

Wright quotes Kenneth Bailey's cultural analysis to argue that women being targeted by Saul's persecution proves they were leaders and influential figures in the community.

Acts 8 N.T. Wright Surprised by Scripture Acts 8

Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Wright's claim that women were persecuted 'equally' with men is an overstatement

Mike analyzes Wright's specific wording. While both men and women were imprisoned, we have no data on whether persecution was truly equal in degree or severity.

N.T. Wright persecution argument

Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Acts 22:3 — Paul 'at the feet of Gamaliel' does not prove everyone who sat at a teacher's feet became a rabbi

Mike questions whether the phrase necessarily means rabbinical training for every person who used it.

Acts 22:3 Acts 22:3 sat at the feet Gamaliel

Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Argument 3 introduced: Universal priesthood of believers

Mike introduces the argument: since all NT believers are priests, and priestly functions include teaching and leading, women should be able to be elders.

eldership universal priesthood of believers

Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Some complementarians argue eldership is priestly in character, therefore reserved for men — Mike rejects this

Mike introduces and then rejects a complementarian argument that the pastoral office is priestly and therefore male-only.

Discovering Biblical Equality Stanley Grenz priestly character of eldership

Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Grenz: the NT parallel to Levitical priesthood is the church as a whole, not ordained leaders

Grenz argues that the priesthood of all believers means the parallel to OT priests is all Christians, not just clergy.

Discovering Biblical Equality universal priesthood of believers Stanley Grenz

Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Grenz's positive case: whoever is a priest should be able to be an elder

After Grenz dismantles the complementarian argument, he builds his own: women are priests, therefore they can be elders.

Discovering Biblical Equality universal priesthood of believers Stanley Grenz

Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Priesthood is necessary but not sufficient for eldership

Mike proposes replacing 'irrelevant' with 'insufficient for' in Grenz's claim.

eldership qualifications necessary but not sufficient

Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Grenz argues the Spirit's sovereign call and gifting, not gender, determines who can be an elder

Grenz's more detailed argument: since the Spirit calls believer-priests to ministry, gender cannot be an overriding disqualifying factor.

1 Corinthians 12:7 Discovering Biblical Equality Stanley Grenz 1 Corinthians 12:7

Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Pushback 1: Not all priests can be elders — eldership has requirements beyond being a Christian

Mike's first rebuttal to Grenz: the Bible pragmatically refutes the argument by listing elder qualifications beyond priesthood.

1 Timothy 3 Titus 1 1 Timothy 3 eldership qualifications Titus 1

Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Pushback 2: If the Holy Spirit is the source of the gender limitation, then ignoring it removes the Spirit's sovereign call

Grenz claims gender restrictions remove the Spirit's sovereign call. Mike flips this argument.

Stanley Grenz eldership qualifications sovereignty of the Spirit

Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Pushback 3: Grenz's argument assumes priesthood + gifts are the ONLY factors for eldership — they are not

Grenz's case rests on two factors: being a priest and having gifts. Mike argues these are not the only factors.

1 Timothy 3 Titus 1 1 Timothy 3 Stanley Grenz eldership qualifications

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Egalitarian argument: letter carriers were expected to teach the letter; Phoebe taught Romans

Xenophon's Cyropaedia: Cyrus limits the carrier to the letter's content, not expanding authority

No proven ancient custom of letter carriers as teachers; practical challenges to the view

Transition to deacons: eldership is male; deacons are the question

Two reasons for women deacons and three counter-arguments

Phoebe likely was an official deacon because of the phrase 'of the church at Cenchreae'

Belleville stretches by claiming women are 'readily labeled deacons' -- pluralizing a single case

Belleville's third footnote: Philippians 2:19-30 -- all males, no women deacons

1 Timothy 3:8-13: deacon requirements with the key question of verse 11 -- wives or women deacons?

Argument for women deacons: the word 'likewise' creates a three-part structure (elders, deacons, women)

'Faithful in all things' as a catch-all summarizing remaining deacon requirements for women

Key argument: elder's wives have no requirements, but deacon's wives do -- because they're ministry participants

Mike's nuanced conclusion: women were functional deaconesses, possibly wives of deacons serving alongside them

Egalitarian contradiction: if 1 Timothy 3:11 has women deacons, it proves women are excluded from elders in 3:1-7

Warning against fence-sitting on divisive issues

Complementarian views on women apostles

Apostle must mean highest leadership for egalitarian argument to work

Egalitarian equivocation on the meaning of apostle

Romans 16:7 text and the translation debate on Junia

Keener's argument: no qualifier on 'the apostles' suggests highest sense

Payne's claim that Junia had 'authority as ministers of the gospel' is vague

The egalitarian 'trump card' of Junia as apostle does not work

Burer-Wallace: 'snowballing dogma with little substance at its core'

Burer-Wallace conclusion: 'almost certainly' means well known to the apostles

Richard Bauckham's rebuttal in Gospel Women

Burer responds to Bauckham's specific example critiques and addresses Chrysostom

Mike's conclusion: Junia was probably not an apostle; if she was, she was a missionary

Mike identifies equivocation in Wright's argument about apostle

Mike critiques N.T. Wright's impact: meme-level arguments persuading many

Craig Keener's argument: Deborah as an Old Testament apostle equivalent

Jesus is the new Moses, not the apostles

Better equivalence: women prophets in OT lead to women prophets in NT, not women apostles

Egalitarian response: cultural reasons prevented women apostles

Mike's experience researching egalitarian scholarship: layers of confusion

Mike's conclusions on women's roles: high view of women but not apostles

Pushback from previous video on female deacons and 1 Timothy 3:8-13

Verses 12-13 are about men, verse 11 is about women — not gender neutral

Introduction: Mike feared he had not heard the best egalitarian arguments

Argument 1 detail: N.T. Wright's persecution argument from 'Surprised by Scripture'

Wright's claim that women were persecuted 'equally' with men is an overstatement

Acts 22:3 — Paul 'at the feet of Gamaliel' does not prove everyone who sat at a teacher's feet became a rabbi

Argument 3 introduced: Universal priesthood of believers

Some complementarians argue eldership is priestly in character, therefore reserved for men — Mike rejects this

Grenz: the NT parallel to Levitical priesthood is the church as a whole, not ordained leaders

Grenz's positive case: whoever is a priest should be able to be an elder

Priesthood is necessary but not sufficient for eldership

Grenz argues the Spirit's sovereign call and gifting, not gender, determines who can be an elder

Pushback 1: Not all priests can be elders — eldership has requirements beyond being a Christian

Pushback 2: If the Holy Spirit is the source of the gender limitation, then ignoring it removes the Spirit's sovereign call

Pushback 3: Grenz's argument assumes priesthood + gifts are the ONLY factors for eldership — they are not

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