Things I Didn't Know as a Complementarian： Women in Ministry part 6

Introduction: Mike feared he had not heard the best egalitarian arguments

Mike explains why he avoided answering women-in-ministry questions for years — he worried he had not been exposed to strong egalitarian arguments due to his complementarian upbringing.

Five egalitarian arguments previewed; first two are weak, last three are stronger

Mike previews the five arguments he will cover: persecution, rabbi-training, universal priesthood, prophecy, and spiritual gifts. He says the first two are weak but the last three challenged him and offer corrections for complementarians.

Historical chauvinism and negative attitudes toward women have affected the church

Mike acknowledges that negative attitudes toward women exist in complementarian circles, rooted not just in biblical teaching but in broader cultural attitudes historically hostile to women.

Argument 1 preview: The persecution argument from N.T. Wright

Mike introduces the first argument: N.T. Wright claims that Paul persecuting women (Acts 8) proves women were leaders in the early church.

N.T. Wright's argument sourced from Kenneth Bailey who based it on cultural parallels

The persecution argument relies on Kenneth Bailey's claim that persecution of women only makes sense if they were leaders, based on 'cultural parallels.'

Argument 2 preview: Jesus training women to be rabbis, not just disciples

The claim that Mary sitting at Jesus's feet (Luke 10) is a technical phrase meaning rabbinical training, implying Jesus intended women for eldership-level leadership.

Argument 3 preview: Universal priesthood of believers means women can hold any ministry role

If all Christians are priests (including women), then women should be able to serve in any ministry role including eldership.

Argument 4 preview: If women can prophesy to the whole church, they can also teach and be elders

Since women prophesied at mixed-gender gatherings and prophecy is a high role involving authority, women should also be allowed to teach and serve as elders.

Argument 5 preview: God gifts women with teaching and leadership, so they should be able to use those gifts fully

Mike says this argument challenged him the most. If the Holy Spirit gives women gifts of teaching and leadership, restricting those gifts contradicts God's purposes.

Argument 1 detail: N.T. Wright's persecution argument from 'Surprised by Scripture'

Wright quotes Kenneth Bailey's cultural analysis to argue that women being targeted by Saul's persecution proves they were leaders and influential figures in the community.

Mike spent 12 hours searching for Kenneth Bailey's source material and could not find it

N.T. Wright's citation of Kenneth Bailey has no footnotes or bibliography. Mike tried to find Bailey's original argument in his books, papers, and Google Scholar.

Mike spent 12 hours searching for Bailey's source; read two of his books and papers on Google Scholar

Mike attempted rigorous scholarly verification of Wright's cited source.

Wright's claim that women were persecuted 'equally' with men is an overstatement

Mike analyzes Wright's specific wording. While both men and women were imprisoned, we have no data on whether persecution was truly equal in degree or severity.

Acts 26:9-11 shows Paul persecuted 'many of the saints,' not leaders specifically

Mike reads Acts 26:9-11 where Paul describes persecuting 'many of the saints,' punishing them 'in every synagogue,' and compelling them to blaspheme.

Acts 8:1 — all believers scattered except the apostles, showing persecution targeted non-leaders

The persecution resulted in everyone fleeing Jerusalem except the apostles. If persecution targeted leaders, the non-leaders should have stayed.

Stephen was a deacon, not a high leader, yet he was stoned

Stephen's martyrdom further undermines the claim that persecution targeted only high leaders.

Acts 8:3 — Saul went house to house dragging off men and women; this was general persecution, not targeting leaders

Mike reads Acts 8:3 which is the actual text Wright bases his argument on. Paul went to every house interrogating whether people were Christians.

Conclusion on persecution argument: being persecuted proves you are a Christian, not a leader

Mike's conclusion: the NT context never says persecution implies important leadership. It just implies being a Christian.

Mike covers N.T. Wright because many viewers said Wright influenced their egalitarian views

Mike explains he is covering Wright's arguments not because many scholars make them, but because viewers told him Wright was the reason they became egalitarian.

Argument 2 detail: N.T. Wright claims 'sat at the feet' is a technical phrase meaning rabbinical training

Wright argues that Mary sitting at Jesus's feet (Luke 10:39) means she was being trained to become a rabbi/teacher, not merely learning as a disciple.

Acts 22:3 — Paul 'at the feet of Gamaliel' does not prove everyone who sat at a teacher's feet became a rabbi

Mike questions whether the phrase necessarily means rabbinical training for every person who used it.

Luke 8:35 uses the same phrase 'sitting at the feet of Jesus' for the healed demoniac — who was clearly not being trained as a rabbi

Mike finds a counter-example in the same gospel (Luke), only two chapters away, using the identical phrase.

A third option Wright did not consider: learning theology deeply without becoming a rabbi

Mike rejects Wright's binary (learning for information vs. becoming a rabbi) and proposes a middle option.

Correction for complementarians: no theology is off limits to women

Mike uses the Mary passage to correct complementarians who would limit what theology women can learn.

Argument 3 introduced: Universal priesthood of believers

Mike introduces the argument: since all NT believers are priests, and priestly functions include teaching and leading, women should be able to be elders.

There is no select group of priests within the body of Christ in the New Testament

Mike explains that the concept of a special clerical priesthood arose from culture and church history, not from the NT or apostolic teaching.

The English word 'priest' comes from Greek 'presbyter' (elder), not the actual Greek word for priest

Mike explains etymological confusion between priest and elder.

1 Peter 2:4-5 — all believers are a holy priesthood offering spiritual sacrifices

Mike begins building the biblical case for universal priesthood from 1 Peter.

Revelation 1:5-6 — Jesus made us a kingdom and priests; includes all freed by his blood

Another proof text for universal priesthood.

Revelation 5:9-10 — those ransomed from every tribe are made a kingdom and priests

Mike continues building the universal priesthood case from Revelation.

Revelation 20:6 — all who share in the first resurrection are priests and will reign with Christ

Final priesthood proof text: men and women together in rulership and priesthood for the millennium.

The Bible never speaks of a second tier of 'extra-priesty' people within the body of Christ

Mike emphasizes there is no second category of priests in the NT beyond the universal priesthood.

Some complementarians argue eldership is priestly in character, therefore reserved for men — Mike rejects this

Mike introduces and then rejects a complementarian argument that the pastoral office is priestly and therefore male-only.

Grenz: the NT parallel to Levitical priesthood is the church as a whole, not ordained leaders

Grenz argues that the priesthood of all believers means the parallel to OT priests is all Christians, not just clergy.

Mike partially agrees with Grenz but warns against pushing the OT-NT priesthood parallel too far

Mike agrees that some functions of the Levitical priesthood transferred to all believers, but not everything transfers perfectly.

Anecdote: Mike challenged a female complementarian scholar at ETS about the universal priesthood problem in her argument

A female egalitarian (corrected: complementarian) scholar argued that priesthood is masculine in character and therefore women cannot hold pastoral positions. Mike asked her about the universal priesthood of believers.

Arguments that current leadership is priestly in character are bad, but we can learn something from an all-male OT priesthood

Mike rejects the priestly-character-of-eldership argument but says there may still be relevant principles from the all-male Levitical priesthood.

Grenz's positive case: whoever is a priest should be able to be an elder

After Grenz dismantles the complementarian argument, he builds his own: women are priests, therefore they can be elders.

Priesthood is necessary but not sufficient for eldership

Mike proposes replacing 'irrelevant' with 'insufficient for' in Grenz's claim.

Grenz argues the Spirit's sovereign call and gifting, not gender, determines who can be an elder

Grenz's more detailed argument: since the Spirit calls believer-priests to ministry, gender cannot be an overriding disqualifying factor.

Pushback 1: Not all priests can be elders — eldership has requirements beyond being a Christian

Mike's first rebuttal to Grenz: the Bible pragmatically refutes the argument by listing elder qualifications beyond priesthood.

Pushback 2: If the Holy Spirit is the source of the gender limitation, then ignoring it removes the Spirit's sovereign call

Grenz claims gender restrictions remove the Spirit's sovereign call. Mike flips this argument.

Pushback 3: Grenz's argument assumes priesthood + gifts are the ONLY factors for eldership — they are not

Grenz's case rests on two factors: being a priest and having gifts. Mike argues these are not the only factors.

Mike argues for obedience even if God's reasons seem offensive to culture

If one of the elder qualifications is being male, that may be offensive to our culture, but God has the right to set up His church as He sees fit.

Priesthood means no one mediates between you and God; this is different from teaching

Mike now builds his positive case for what priesthood means for Christians and why it does not equate to eldership.

1 Timothy 2:5 — one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Mike cites this verse as foundational for the doctrine of no human mediators in Christianity.

Hebrews 10:19-22 — believers can enter the holy places directly through Jesus's blood

Mike uses Hebrews to demonstrate that all believers have direct access to God without a mediator.

No special group of Christians should serve as a bridge to God's grace for other Christians

Mike argues against any form of priestly mediation within Christianity.

Correction for complementarians: the husband is NOT the priest of his home

Mike disagrees with many complementarians, including pastors he has respected, on this point.

Being a priest does not mean anything about being an elder; eldership is not priestly in character

Mike draws the sharp distinction: priesthood is about access to God, not about teaching or leading others.

Anticipated objection: if women could not be OT priests but are NT priests, why can't they hold the highest roles?

Mike addresses the challenge to his view: if women's exclusion from OT priesthood was about gender, and now they are priests, doesn't that prove they can have any role?

What was uniquely priestly was the mediating function, which now belongs to all believers

Mike clarifies the distinction between priestly mediation and teaching.

Argument 4 introduced: The prophecy argument — if women prophesied, they can teach and be elders

Mike introduces the fourth and one of the more challenging arguments. Women prophesied, prophecy is a high role with authority, therefore women can teach and be elders.

Survey of women who prophesied in the Bible: Miriam, Huldah, Deborah, Isaiah's wife, Anna, Philip's four daughters

Mike establishes that women clearly prophesied throughout the Bible, both in the OT and NT.

1 Corinthians 11 gives rules for how women should prophesy in public gatherings; Acts 2 / Joel 2 declares sons and daughters shall prophesy

Key NT evidence that women prophesied publicly in church gatherings.

Three egalitarian claims from women prophesying: (1) women could speak publicly, (2) prophecy is similar to teaching, (3) prophecy carries authority rivaling eldership

Mike outlines three sub-arguments egalitarians derive from women prophesying.

Mike calls himself a 'soft complementarian' because egalitarian arguments bring needed balance

Mike explains why he uses the term 'soft complementarian.'

Claim 1 analysis: Women speaking publicly in mixed-gender gatherings is demonstrably true

Mike agrees with the first egalitarian claim derived from prophecy.

Two key passages used by strong complementarians to deny women speaking publicly: 1 Corinthians 14:34 and 1 Timothy 2

Mike identifies the passages that fuel the opposing view.

Complementarian claim that women only prophesied privately is an error

Some complementarians argue women had private prophetic revelation but never prophesied publicly.

1 Corinthians 11 clearly refers to prophecy in public mixed-gender gatherings; the whole section (chs. 11-14) deals with gathered worship

Mike argues the broader context of 1 Corinthians leaves no room for limiting this to private settings.

Anna prophesied publicly at the temple to all who were waiting for the redemption of Jerusalem (Luke 2:36-38)

Mike presents Anna as another example of public, mixed-gender prophetic speech.

1 Corinthians 11:4-5 gives parallel instructions for men and women prophesying in the same context

Mike reads the key text: men are told how to prophesy, and in the same breath women are told how to prophesy.

John MacArthur's response: maybe Paul means public places but not congregational worship gatherings

Mike quotes MacArthur's article (from gty.org) about head coverings to show his interpretation.

MacArthur's real basis: 1 Corinthians 14:34 (women keep silent) overrides the plain reading of 1 Corinthians 11

Mike identifies that MacArthur's position depends entirely on 1 Corinthians 14:34 controlling the meaning of chapter 11.

Four reasons why 1 Corinthians 11 must be about Christian worship gatherings, not just public places

Mike gives detailed reasons for rejecting MacArthur's reading.

Broader context of 1 Corinthians 11-14 confirms it is about gathered worship: Lord's Supper and spiritual gifts in church

Mike appeals to the wider literary context to confirm his reading.

MacArthur's conclusion quoted and rejected: 'women may have the gift of prophecy but normally are not to prophesy where men are present'

Mike quotes MacArthur's specific position and says the rule 'seems wrong.'

Mike is not a cessationist — he believes prophecy still occurs today

Mike briefly states his position on the continuation of spiritual gifts.

Key distinction: Scripture limits HOW women prophesy, not WHERE or WHEN

Mike summarizes his position on women and prophecy.

Claim 2 analysis: Prophecy is similar enough to teaching that women should be able to teach in mixed gatherings

Mike now analyzes the second egalitarian claim from women prophesying.

Prophecy is NOT teaching — the Bible consistently keeps them in separate categories

Mike's key pushback: while prophecy may involve elements of teaching, they are distinct categories in Scripture.

Important qualifiers: context, frequency, and whether a woman is functionally serving as an elder matter

Mike adds nuance about when teaching from a woman might cross a line.

The egalitarian move 'prophecy involves teaching, therefore all teaching is acceptable, therefore prophecy equals eldership' blurs God-given distinctions

Mike warns against the slippery-slope reasoning some egalitarians use.

Claim 3 analysis: Craig Keener argues prophecy carries authority that rivals eldership

Mike examines the third and strongest form of the prophecy argument.

Pushback on Keener: influence is not the only issue — no complementarian should limit women's influence

Mike argues that the issue is not about influence but about a specific authority role.

Do not be allergic to women having influence — that is what gives complementarians a reputation for insecurity

Mike addresses complementarian men directly.

Influence is not the same as eldership — a governor has massive influence but is not your church elder

Mike uses analogies to distinguish influence from the specific authority of eldership.

Eldership is radically different from prophecy: anyone could prophesy instantly, but elders must meet extensive qualifications

Mike begins a detailed list of differences between prophecy and eldership.

Elders govern the church; prophets do not — prophets are not appointed to an ongoing office

Mike contrasts the governing authority of elders with the non-governing nature of prophets.

Prophecy is tested; the prophet has no authority over the evaluation of their own prophecy

Mike explains the testing process for prophecy per 1 Corinthians 14:29 and 1 John 4:1.

With elders, you test the man so the teaching will be pure; with prophecy, you test the prophecy because anyone can give one

Mike draws the fundamental distinction in how authority works for elders vs. prophets.

Prophecy is passive in nature — the prophet is not supposed to speak beyond what God gave them

Mike cites Craig Keener in support of this point about the passive nature of prophecy.

Keener himself acknowledges prophets had 'no authority outside of their message'

Mike uses Keener's own words to push back on other egalitarians who argue prophecy equals authority.

Prophecy and eldership are very different: prophecy is passive, requires no qualifications or appointment, and the prophet has no ongoing authority

Mike summarizes the key differences that undermine the prophecy-equals-eldership argument.

Scripture places limits on women prophesying: they must acknowledge male headship (1 Corinthians 11) and may not judge prophecies (1 Corinthians 14)

Mike notes that even within prophecy, there are gender-specific limitations.

Conclusion on prophecy: it pushes back against banning women from public speech but does not support removing all eldership restrictions

Mike gives his balanced conclusion on the prophecy argument.

Argument 5 introduced: The spiritual gifts argument — God gifts women with the same gifts as men

Mike introduces the fifth and final argument, which he considers the strongest of the day.

Philip Payne's two-part argument: complementarians either assume God never gives women certain gifts OR they wrongly restrict those gifts

Mike presents Philip Payne's formulation of the gifts argument.

Romans 12:6-8 — teaching and leading are listed as spiritual gifts alongside gifts women clearly have

Mike examines the gifts list in Romans 12 to determine whether women can have teaching and leadership gifts.

1 Corinthians 12:28 — 'administrating' (leadership) appears as a gift distinct from the office of teacher

Mike examines another gifts list.

Ephesians 4:11-12 is about offices (apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds/teachers) not about gifts applicable to the question

Mike examines Ephesians 4 but determines it is about offices, not gifts.

Andronicus and Junia — debate about whether there were female apostles

Mike briefly mentions the debate about Junia's status as an apostle.

1 Corinthians 12:8-11 — speaking gifts (word of wisdom, word of knowledge, tongues, interpretation) seem available to women by analogy with prophecy

Mike examines another gifts list and finds it would be arbitrary to say women can prophesy but not have other speaking gifts.

1 Peter 4:10-11 — 'whoever speaks' includes all speaking gifts and all are meant to be used

Mike cites 1 Peter to show gifts are meant to be used, not kept dormant.

Women gifted in teaching should use that gift — find ways that honor biblical limitations

Mike counsels pastors on how to handle gifted women in their churches.

Mike's personal example: he served as youth pastor for 13 years and never functioned as senior pastor, yet his gifts were not limited

Mike uses his own ministry experience to show that gifts can be fully expressed outside the senior elder role.

Gifts do not seem gender-specific; leadership and teaching could be gifts women have

Mike's conclusion on the first part of the gifts argument.

Most Christians gifted in teaching are not elders — you can teach without being an elder

Mike challenges the assumption that having a gift requires the highest office to express it.

Second part of gifts argument: Philip Payne says gifts are 'for the common good' so you cannot restrict who a woman teaches

Mike addresses the more challenging claim from Payne.

Titus 2:3-5 — older women are to teach younger women; a biblical case for women's teaching ministry outside eldership

Mike provides a scriptural example of women teaching in appropriate contexts.

Not everyone who teaches is an elder — an elder must be able to teach, but ability to teach does not require eldership

Mike makes the logical distinction between necessary and sufficient conditions.

Colossians 3:16 — mutual teaching applies to all believers including women; Priscilla corrected Apollos

Mike argues that general mutual teaching and admonishing in the church includes women teaching men.

Romans 12:6-8 revisited — women were in every gift category except teaching/leading; it is arbitrary to exclude them from those two

Mike restates the argument from Romans 12 more explicitly.

It would contradict clear passages to say women can never lead or teach, but the question is: in what realms?

Mike affirms women have gifts of teaching and leadership based on Scripture and personal observation.

Egalitarian claim that women are 'kept from serving God according to their gifting' is wrong — most gifted teachers are not elders

Mike rebuts the claim that restricting eldership means restricting women's gifts.

1 Corinthians 12:4-6 — there are 'varieties' of gifts, service, and activities; not all gifts are expressed the same way

Mike uses Paul's own language to show gifts are meant to be expressed in diverse ways.

Ministry positions should be shaped around people's gifts, not forcing people into existing roles

Mike offers a practical ministry philosophy digression.

Rebutting Payne's 'for the common good' argument: Paul meant gifts should benefit others, not that all gifts must be expressed Sunday morning in front of everyone

Mike directly addresses Philip Payne's use of 1 Corinthians 12:7.

Stanley Grenz argues 'the integral relation between gifts and ministry' means the church must give place for the giftedness of all persons

Mike quotes another egalitarian scholar's version of the gifts argument.

Grenz presumes (1) teaching and leadership can only find true expression in eldership — Mike disagrees

Mike identifies the first false premise in Grenz's argument.

Grenz presumes (2) gifts are the ONLY requirement for eldership — Scripture clearly gives additional requirements including gender

Mike identifies the second false premise.

Summary of gifts argument: women likely have teaching/leadership gifts, no scripture limits those gifts by gender, but limitations are on who can be an elder specifically

Mike summarizes his conclusions from the gifts argument.

Why gifts do not translate to eldership: (1) one can teach and lead outside eldership; (2) the restriction is gender-based, not gift-based; (3) gifting alone cannot be sufficient for appointment

Mike gives three reasons why the gifts argument fails to establish women as elders.

Tom Schreiner quote: complementarians should not give the impression women are unintelligent or lack teaching ability

Mike quotes a fellow complementarian to correct unhealthy attitudes toward women's teaching.

Bias against women's teaching comes from women too, not just men

Mike points out that the attitude that women cannot correct men is held by some women as well.

Rebutting Philip Payne's use of Colossians 3:16 to claim all Christians should have a teaching ministry

Mike addresses Payne's argument that Colossians 3:16 proves every woman should have a teaching ministry.

1 Corinthians 12:29-30 — Paul's rhetorical questions show not everyone is supposed to teach

Mike cites Paul's own words against the idea that all Christians should have a teaching ministry.

Video summary — Argument 1: Persecution argument is clearly false

Mike begins his final summary of all five arguments.

Video summary — Argument 2: 'Sat at the feet' meant rabbinical training is false, but women should pursue full theological education

Summary of the rabbi-training argument.

Video summary — Argument 3: Universal priesthood is true but priesthood is not the only factor in eldership

Summary of the universal priesthood argument.

Video summary — Argument 4: Women can prophesy in mixed gatherings but prophecy is radically different from eldership

Summary of the prophecy argument.

Video summary — Argument 5: Women can teach and lead but should find expression outside the role of elder

Summary of the gifts argument.

Preview of next video: Galatians 3:28 — 'the ultimate egalitarian proof text'

Mike previews the next video in the series.

Mike invites substantive, detailed critique rather than vague pushback

Mike asks critics to provide specific claims, sources, and evidence when challenging his arguments.