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Ok, getting back to answering Mark. Several of his paragraphs subsequent to the ones I have already addressed are expansions on the same issues. So I’m going to comment only on the ones that are left

Mark, > This is a massive debate which we have barely touched on, so i hope you can appreciate why i had to probe your view since it was producing a contradiction in the word. But it is good to see y

Hi everyone, Curious as to whom to believe – egalitarians or complementarists – I begun a research four years ago. I found that despite all the fancy rhetoric and emotional appeals, modern complemen

Mark, I missed your Bible references on your post. Sorry. I have been copying and pasting sections for comment and for some reason I must have been interrupted and didn’t finish reading that one post

Mark, Thanks for your quick response. You said: > It is important to note that the atonement is the ‘canceling’ of our debt. That is, Jesus took our sin and the punishment for our sin onto his shou

Cheryl, There are a number of problems with the complementarian interpretation of [Gen 1](logos4:///Bible/Ge 1)-3 that you and the others have pointed out. In the comments and observations that foll

Mark, > Not true! Moses wrote this and God used him to record what God wanted recorded. It in no ways makes it deceptive. I’m sure you will realise this once you get a chance to do some research on i

#28 Mark, Sorry for the slowness. I am trying to slow down some as ministry work has taken up so much time and I am working on my first book. It isn’t easy to carve out a few hours at a time and whe

Mark, you said: > Thankyou for your comments. A few points… you are correct that the verb to be in verse 1 is a present participle- I missed that and I’m glad you corrected me. However this does not

Mark, You said: > I never said i was a greek scholar…far from it. Look at your comment #354. You said: > As a greek scholar I am surprised at your comments. This is written as you claiming to be

Mark, You said: > You can’t say that the woman’s seed (in the context) is victorious over the serpents-so whether you translate it crush, strike, bruise etc you must do the same for both. Yes, I a

Cheryl, “So why is it that God did not take the complete payment of Jesus at the cross and put it to your account at the time that Jesus died? Was His payment not full and complete at that time?” Le

Mark, You said: > People can only recieve eternal life by being reconciled in Christ. That is precisely why ‘life’ can only be ‘given’ to God’s elect, because only God’s elect have their sins ‘aton

Hi Kristen, Sorry to hear you are not well. I hope you are feeling better soon. I wasn’t going to post this just yet until we finished more of the subject at hand, but just in case you do get a ch

Mark, You said: > I would like to know how you think that ‘dead people’ can respond to God. “Dead” is a metaphor. We know that “dead” people can bury the dead. They can eat, drink, be merry and th

Don, You said: > “We see examples of this truncation in Jonah, where he gives no escape clause in his warning, yet they escape;” While we do not have the words quoted from Jonah, we can know for su

Mark, you said: > Such far, you are failing heavily to read the context and have approached both [Eph 2:1](logos4:///Bible/Eph 2.1), and [Rom 6:11](logos4:///Bible/Ro 6.11) with a preconcieved ideas

I don’t think that one could call the complimentarian view of the Trinity “unorthodox”. The doctrine of the Trinity was something the early Church had to wrestle through and they opposed the Arians so

TL, I think you are right. And it is interesting that the Free Methodists, who broke away from the Methodists over slavery in 1860 (since the Methodist church refused to speak against it) were the fir

Michael, Martin, Paula – go ahead and continue to discuss the issues as I work on my responses. I may not be as fast as you folks are 🙂 Michael: Regarding your first post (#1).  You said:  “Cher

I received an email from a friend who was interested in dialogging on the issue of sin but didn’t want to post on the blog so I am going to address their concerns/questions to me here for everyone to

Cheryl, I listened to the debate earlier today while driving and I was absolutely appalled at Matt’s behavior towards you. In spite of his adamant disagreement with your biblical egalitarianism, such

Okay, I’m back. There must be a limit to how long these posts and comments can be because my post kept disappearing. Oh well, to carry on… Michael you said “I am sleepless so I have been surfing the

Here are two excerpts from my book which deal with the question of the subjection of the Son to the Father and how it relates to the assumed subjection of the woman to the man. (I didn’t feel like re-

Ok — here is my response to the first of Mark’s points that I said I was going to respond to. His words are in bold, followed by mine. **My point is that both the Jewish (missed by Kristen when she

#97 Mark, > By the way let me be clear that i do not think that non-calvinists are not Christians. I myself was not always convinced of reformed theology but i would never have said i wasn’t saved. N

Mark, > Have you now changed your view from saying they couldn’t speak His name to now they could, but the full revelation of what that meant didn’t come until [Exodus 3](logos4:///Bible/Ex 3)? If so

bgk #54, > The carageenan in my ice cream comes from seaweed, but I don’t know if it has seeds.  Very cute!  And a mighty fine sense of h

to continue with gengwall’s comments: > On “desire” – we continue to use that word because it is in all the modern translations, but we all know that “desire” is somewhat inadequate. The correct term

I have read Payne’s book and I think there are some misunderstanding about his arguments he[re. 1](logos4:///Bible/Re 1). Payne says that the present INDICATIVE form of “I am not permitting” is what

Hi Cheryl, I realize this is an old post and I’m dragging it back out, but I’m doing research for a study of [1 Cor 11:1-16](logos4:///Bible/1Co 11.1-16) and I’m a little confused about something you

Mark #337 It will likely take me awhile to answer your comments. My time is limited once again as tomorrow my son arrives with his new fiancée whom we have not yet met so I will want to spend time wi

Thanks for your participation Mark on our dialog on [John 6](logos4:///Bible/Jn 6). We did start with a little bit from [John 5](logos4:///Bible/Jn 5) to set the stage. You mentioned that the Jews wa

Susanna, You said: > the comps are arguing that only Adam was called by God. This is the central argument which supports the beliefs that > > 1. The man was created to lead the woman > 2. The woma

Hi Michael, No your teacher analogy isn’t correct. I didn’t even think it try to pull it apart because it is meaningless to me. I would rather put my effort into the inspired Hebrew. English does not

Oh Mark, I just love it when you comps write like this! I know you are a smart guy, you just have swallowed a bit too much of the comps’ cool aid (isn’t this American saying an interesting way of putt

Diane Sellner posted “En Hakkore’s” “refutation” of me on CARM and here is my answer: > Originally Posted by Diane S (Quoting “En Hakkore”) > “Firstly, you baited with the name Bergen for three pos

Craig, You said: > Is it > “usurp the authority of an accepted/authorized teacher before you yourself have been authorized” > as Kristen has put forward or to “dominate” as I think you believe.

Good day Kerryn (that’s Canadian for gidday!) Great questions. You said: > The verses you use to make your point regarding Adam being a ‘man’ use the word anthropos, ([Romans 5:12,19](logos4:/

Cheryl, I understand your position on [1 Timothy 2:12-15](logos4:///Bible/1Ti 2.12-15) to be that Paul is telling one specific wife in the church to stop teaching her husband false doctrine, and that

“2. It was never used in relation between PEOPLE without the notion of authority.” Wrong! [1 Corinthians 12:21](logos4:///Bible/1Co 12.21). Head is used metaphorically to represent one person in the

Mark you said: > Now Cheryl claimed that no such ‘additional grammar’ in [Eph 2](logos4:///Bible/Eph 2) shows that Paul means a past condition. However in verse 2 is a very clear grammatical feature-

Hi Cheryl, Thankyou for your comments. A few points… you are correct that the verb to be in verse 1 is a present participle- I missed that and I’m glad you corrected me. However this does not change

Don, You said: > Everyone SHOULD have a current understanding and should be teachable, but if something does not convince them, then it would be bad faith to pretend it did. I agree completely.  We

Mark you said: > By the way here are some true representations of what the Present Greek Tense denotes or means… The durative (linear or progressive) in the present stem: the action is represented as

Gazza, You said: > The [Romans 6](logos4:///Bible/Ro 6) passage dosn’t actually say anyone is dead now rather that the believers should “count themselves dead to sin” Paul then explains what being

Dear Zach, Amen to Cheryl’s response to you. 1) You seem to think the Bible establishes a power structure where one group (males) is given, by God, the right to have power over another group (femal

Craig, Whats the evidence that women struggle more with that or at least did in Paul’s time? Why can it not just be what it says…simply a qualification that applies to women or wives? This is the h

NN, You said: > To reiterate – we are agreed that Christ (in human form) had authority and that Christ now has authority – in fact All authority (irregardless of its origin). May I rewrite this to

Michael, Thanks a bunch for posting some of your questions, because it helps me to understand your mindset and I am hoping I can help you understand my mindset too even if it is only a little. You sa

Cheryl, I’m a little perplexed with you. As a greek scholar you are being totally unfaithful to how the greek language functions. I have agreed with you that the present indicate can have a linear fu

#24 Frank, Sorry that I am so slow at getting to some of these comments. > Years ago, when I studied both prophecy and prophetic ministry in the NT, it became apparent to me, as I made a comparativ

Michael, You said: “[Genesis 2](logos4:///Bible/Ge 2) does not contradict chapter 1, since it does not affirm exactly when God created the animals. He simply says He brought the animals (which He h

Now concerning Mark’s answers about Eve not being banished from the garden. Mark, you said: > 1. First of all, we need to remember that this verse is within the corpus of punishment and curse. Ther

Oops. I missed the anti-spam word and copied the code from the other page. Grudem’s Open Letter to Egalitarians has been well answered many times. In fact, that webpage used to contain the responses

Dave, I appreciate both your and Kay’s comments and suggestions on my last comment. Right now, I am expanding and editing my comments on [Colossians 3:15-17](logos4:///Bible/Col 3.15-17), as suggested

Hi Lin, I’ll see what I can do. What the French prefer is completely irrelevant to what the apostles wrote in Greek. Two completely different cultures and languages. And *tis* can be either masc. or

I simply can’t hold back any more. Sorry for the length but this simply must be resolved. Below is a breakdown I did some time ago on the use of *kephale* in the NT. I present this as textual proof th

On a previous thread, I referred to an audio download from Walter Martin that I had listened to that day: <http://www.spiritwatch.org/cultrise79.ram> I’m amazed at how much of what he said stuck wi

Here is what I posted in the last thread, including a link to the essay by Payne about the nature of the word “oude,” which is what engendered this discussion: \*\*\* Cheryl, I’m sure you will agr

Hi Kristen, While I was working on my response, you responded to Craig which I did not see. I have only a little time left this morning, so I will answer this one and then have to leave. You said:

Don, While I can see “tender” is a by-product of circumcision, I think there is a much greater application concerning what is **cut off** not what is left. This is why I believe very strongly that t

Thanks Cheryl, that was very edifying. I kind of figured that imperatives could sometimes be used in the permissive sense, since I had noticed certain imperatives logically seem like they must be only

Mark you said: > So although this may seem messy to many people with all the technical stuff let me conclude. First the perfect indicate verb can take either past, present or future meaning depending

Gazza, One more comment on the present tense. Jesus said in [John 8:58](logos4:///Bible/Jn 8.58)- > [John 8:58](logos4:///Bible/Jn 8.58) (NASB) > 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to yo

Cheryl, “I also accept that the Hebrew grammar makes a distinction between knowing God’s name and knowing His full character that He revealed with Moses.” This is a massive debate which we have bar

Mark, you wrote quoting me and then answered: > “So the $64,000 dollar question is why did God inspire [Ephesians 2:1](logos4:///Bible/Eph 2.1) in the present tense and not the imperfect tense which

Mark, You said: > Please don’t slay me for my spelling mistakes ‘tote’ and ‘present indicate’. They are just spelling mistakes, there is not need to go overboard. I think that we can have a lot mo

Cheryl “So the $64,000 dollar question is why did God inspire [Ephesians 2:1](logos4:///Bible/Eph 2.1) in the present tense and not the imperfect tense which would show a past state? If we believe th

Mark you said: > [Mat 13:44](logos4:///Bible/Mt 13.44) “Again the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he ha

Cheryl, I never said i was a greek scholar…far from it. I would have considered you one though (which is what i said), that is why it worried me that you ignored the many meanings the present indicat

Mark you said: > You can give your interpretation of a passage and that is fine, but do not mishandle how the greek can actually function in a given context. To do so is not a good thing to do. I ha

I’m glad the focus will be on [1 Tim. 2](logos4:///Bible/1Ti 2), because Dr. Nyland’s notes for this book are available for free at [This Link](http://www.godswordtowomen.org/studies/resources/Source/

Hi, Cheryl. I’ve been following these video posts with interest and am astonished at how much comp teaching has in common with JW teaching. Really! I’ve worked as an overseas missionary most of my li

Hi everyone, From a different blog I have been involved with recently, there was a question raised over the legitimacy of thinking that Paul had a particular Ephesian woman in mind, from the perspect

Dear Captain Planet (cool name!) I agree that most egalitarians do not preach on the hard passages of Scripture like [1 Timothy 2:12-15](logos4:///Bible/1Ti 2.12-15) but I am different. Here is why.

HI, Cheryl, I’ve been reading your blog for a while, and I want to say that I enjoy it a lot. I agree with what you say on a lot of things concerning Adam and Eve’s relationship and the fall. Howeve

Mark, You mention my lack of Greek exegesis on [Eph 4:11](logos4:///Bible/Eph 4.11). Well let me enlighten you so that we can be on the same page. The grammar of [Eph 4:11](logos4:///Bible/Eph 4.11)

Mark you wrote: “I’m interested to hear how you believe you have answered Grudem’s challenge. Can you explain how [James 4:4-10](logos4:///Bible/Jas 4.4-10) is reciprocal submission with no authority?

#20 Chris, You said: > Here a command is given to the congregation. The pronoun ‘she’ refers to ‘a woman’, but the command isn’t just for one specific woman, it is for all women. This is no proble

John, I am afraid that you are protesting too much without a shred of evidence offered.  You said: > Again you are making a declarative statement that is false. > > Again “The Law” only refers to th

A possible interpretation of I Tim 2:15 is that in the first half “she” does refer to Eve, and in the second half “they” refers to all women. My understanding is that people of the OT era were saved b

Mark you quoted me and then said: > “[Ephesians 2:8, 9](logos4:///Bible/Eph 2.8,9) is not talking about faith as a gift because the term is singular and faith is said to be the thing that the gift (s

Mark, I would like to add some comments to your exegesis of [John 6:26-30](logos4:///Bible/Jn 6.26-30) because you missed some things. > [John 6:25–26](logos4:///Bible/Jn 6.25-26) (NASB) > 25 Whe

gengwall, I am very pleased that you are allowing yourself to be open about Eve not having sinned in rebellion after the fall. > Either [Gen 3:16](logos4:///Bible/Ge 3.16) is exclusively about Adam

Don, I have heard the interpretation before about the Gnostic teaching that woman authored the man. Although I do believe that it is possible that Paul could have somehow been referring to this teac

Mark, For [John 6:35-44](logos4:///Bible/Jn 6.35-44), the view I hold regards who the “all that” refers to. Many calvinists identify the “all that” in verses 37 and 39 as “those whom, in his great l

Pinklight, I think people often keep and defend traditions that agree with their personal desires, like in this case, for male power and privilege in a world that is shifting from male-dominance to f

Metacrock, No offense taken at all. I don’t mind people arguing with passion. I happen to love people who have lots of passion. By the way, you may be interested to know that “a woman” absolutely can

Wow, we are up to comment 55 and still haven’t begun looking at the text! You are correct in assuming that i haven’t read or know alot of what Wayne Grudem has written. In fact i have a book on the

Mark you said: > Second point, not all are ‘able’ to receive Christ. People are blind ([2 Cor 4:4](logos4:///Bible/2Co 4.4)). But people are blind for several reasons. One of the reasons is that the

[Isaiah 3:12](logos4:///Bible/Is 3.12) (King James Version) 12As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and dest

#66 Mark, I am just going to bed so I am going to pick just one of your comments for tonight and catch the rest as I can hopefully tomorrow. > My point though was simply that exegetically, reading

Cheryl, it seems to me that you have fabricated a rule of Greek grammar for yourself regarding what ‘she’ and ‘they’ can or cannot refer to in order to prop up your view on [1 Timothy 2:11-15](logos4:

Peter, I have walked through your case and find no evidence that the actions of the crowd define the meaning of the words of Jesus to be a physical looking at, a physical following. You wrote: It is m

Mark, I am going to try to get through as much of your questions as I can before I have to leave. > 2. In [Gen 2](logos4:///Bible/Ge 2) there is the introduction of the definate article so it is rig

Mark, You also answered Kay that a widow who was older ([1 Timothy 5:9-12](logos4:///Bible/1Ti 5.9-12)) could be nothing more than one who needed financial support. I would like to differ with this

#44 CLC, You said: > 2. Second, my NIV translation makes it seem like only women fell into sin: “14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.” We all

I agree with Bushnell on this issue. LESSON 16. GOD’S WARNING TO EVE 122. The N. T. teaches us that “He that committeth sin is of the devil. . . Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin. . . .

Craig, I have some further thoughts about the connection of a sexual *authenein* with Eve. What if there is truth to the ancient understanding of Church Fathers that the “desire” of [Genesis 3:16](lo

Ladies, ladies, please relax, calm out, and enjoy some peace, and let me be mad, annoyed, cross, vexed, irritated, indignant, irked, furious, enraged, infuriated instead. { ; o ) Pastors? Hmmm? D

I have read through Interview Rounds 8 and 9, and found them very good. But I wonder if our rigid distincitions between elders, overseers and ministers (which in Greek are prebuteroi, episcapoi, and d

Hmmm, it appears I have trouble with people disagreeing with me. So far only when talking with you Mark! You gave wise advice to Lydia, that assumptions do not help our discussion. Let me say the foll

Hi allennelson4, You said: I’m saying you can break it down like this, “work for the food that endures to eternal life which I will give to you” That’s connected. It is connected, but it isn’t connect

An excellent exposition on [1 Corinthians 14:34,35](logos4:///Bible/1Co 14.34,35): Relative to every truth, there are extremes. Extremes are not seen on God’s part, but they enter in as a result of m

Mark, Let’s talk about context, context, context for [1 Timothy 5](logos4:///Bible/1Ti 5). Does your church congregation/denomination “Let a widow be enrolled if she is not less than sixty years of a

Regarding Matt’s comments on the Greek word for teach which is didasko, Matt was trying to say that because the word for teach used in this passage is a normal word for teach not one specifically for

Mark, You said: > If you look closely at the Hebrew in [Genesis 3](logos4:///Bible/Ge 3), there is nothing in the grammar to suggest that Eve’s motive’s were good and Adam’s bad. Actually I just p

Sue, I admire your honestly regarding your bias. I think that is helpful for all to understand, so that when comments are made rejecting the BDAG for example because of bias, one can see that such an

Lawrence, Apparently you didn’t read my article very carefully because you didn’t answer the fact that the meaning of a word is evident in its context. The context of [1 Cor. 11](logos4:///Bible/1Co

Cheryl, Yes i did feel you were harsh or frustrated and i understand that, but i still do not believe that i am throwing a low ball or presenting logical fallicies. Very briefly i will respond in a h

@Mark #43 > I would have thought that an exegesis based on one’s own un supported grammtical interpretation would be a hole to begin with…a major hole. Unsupported? No true at all but seems to be yo

Mark, “C’mon mate, let’s be realisitic” is not a valid argument…especially when I am realistic! Kay responded on my behalf with regards to you first point. Thanks Kay, Mark did miss the point. I shou

Jeremy said: “These reasons are the creation order and Eve’s deception. These reasons are not cultural or temporal, but eternal. Therefore, his command is eternal. No?” Not necessarily. There ar

Kristen, “You are not submitting to “one another” but only to “some others.” That’s right, because I’m not going to submit to the 12 year old youth kid in the same way I would to my pastor. It is il

Peter, Your case as presented is that in [John 6](logos4:///Bible/Jn 6) the term “coming” is a physical coming that means a physical following Jesus so that those people whom Jesus is talking about in

Strong’s is a concordance, which gives the usages of words in a particular book. So each translation or paraphrase of the Bible would need its own concordance. Strong’s is tied to the KJV and thus on

Martin, Here are a couple: > Inscriptional Evidence for Women as Leaders in the Ancient Synagogue: SBLSP 20, ’81, 4; B’s rendering: ‘Here lies Sara Ura, elder [or aged woman]’; > Arndt, W., Danke

Mark, I believe the surrender required by mutual submission is so radical in its demands that it causes “wife/obedience to husband/authority” to pale by comparison. The beauty can be seen in Jesus ex

Cheryl, I understand totally where you are coming from. But unfortunately there are just as many other commentaries to quote in opposition to your view. Bible exposition commentary “From the begin

“Words have set meanings and always will. Do you use a dictionary?” I certainly do use a dictionary, as you suggest Douglass, but it is important to use the right dictionary. A dictionary of English

Waneta, If you look closely at the Hebrew in [Genesis 3](logos4:///Bible/Ge 3), there is nothing in the grammar to suggest that Eve’s motive’s were good and Adam’s bad. In fact the ‘desire’ Eve has,

Dave, We are always going to but heads. I recommend you read the scholarly work of comps such as that book i recommended before you continue to argue for Cheryl’s exegesis. s Kostenberger has con

Mark, You said: > Again you have not dealt with any precise exegetical arguments i have raised. Please deal with them. > > I have not talked about hiding sin, only you have. Well, Mark, that appea

Dear NN, I never said you said anything about the usage of hypotasso and epitasso together. I wanted to draw your attention to them since it is usually simply assumed that hypotasso is the antonym of

Don, You said: > #2 “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.” Ralph Waldo Emerson does not explain the difference between foolish and wise consistency. Who are we to say that it is

Mark, You said: > [Mat 3:2](logos4:///Bible/Mt 3.2) “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” > Now is he talking about heaven Cheryl? kingdom of **heaven** Sure seems like he is talking a

Mark, You said: > By the way i did just a quick bit of research to see whether your claim that no lexicons prove my point about the word ‘world’, and unfortunately for you your wrong. > > For examp

gengwall, I think it would be helpful for us to define our terms because some reading this blog may not understand what we mean by “ruling” people. We must look to scripture to see what the context i

Mark, To continue on with your comments: > And, finally, she minimizes her privileges by proclaiming “we may eat” of the fruit of the trees; God had said that they “may eat freely” from the trees (

Anon y mous, Welcome to my blog and to this conversation! You said: > We didn’t all sin “in” Adam. Death spread to all men because all sinned. Adam, whose name means humanity, is the archetype for

Craig, 1. Paul’s words “I am not…” is the main key that the prohibition is a local situation since his prohibition is not tied to any law instituted in the OT. Since God’s laws are always clear, alwa

Hi Gazza, As far as English translations, here are three translations that list the verb as present and I am also going to copy the NASB with the note that the literal is the present “being”. > [Ep

Mark, It is interesting that you admit that the tense is not set as a past tense and the that it can be something that goes on and on and on if it is a participle. The grammar is present verb active

Mara Thanks for the referral. “The way church ought to be?” Bob Lund says some thoughtful things. and the book has many quotes from other authors. “Where in the New Testament do you find the

Hello! what an interesting blog. i have spent several hours reading through your material today and really enjoyed it. One question/comment though… I am not sure about the “distinction” b/w Adam

To Grant and Cheryl Here’s what I wrote: ‘I will list several reasons why men who’ve “held the reigns” in today’s churches have turned them into Satan’s paradise. They who believe that it is God th

Hello, everyone. I have read through this post and the comments made on it, at least twice, first to make sure I correctly the arguments and counter-arguments, and then to decide what are appropri ate

Holly – the KJV only debate is a whole ‘nother can of worms. It boils down to quantity vs. quality. The Greek foundation of the KJV is called the “Received Text” because it was basically all we had “

Peter, I see that you have replied again while I was finishing my response. I don’t know how much more I can respond tonight and I have a very busy week ahead of me as I let things slide while I was t

Craig, You also said: > 4 I know both egals and comps who can see the force of Cheryl’s argument from v15, and yet they still have difficulty accepting that v11,12 are speaking of particular indivi

#6 gengwall, > I also agree with truthseeker that “unbelieving” may have a broader idea in mind, and that is of any husband whose behavior is “unscrupulous, unfair or dishonest”, whether he is a Chri

@163 Kristen, You said: > But I still have some questions. First, are there any articles in Koine Greek equivalent to the English “this” or “that”? Yes. Houtos means **this** and you can find this

Gazza, Welcome back! I missed you! > You say that the knowledge of good and evil is part of being created in the image of God and was not a result of eating the fruit of the forbidden tree. In [Gen

Frank, You make this claim: 2. The insistence that kephale in [1 Cor 11:3](logos4:///Bible/1Co 11.3) must mean “authority over” and not “source” so as to weigh an argument in one’s favor against h

Craig, You can argue with Kostenberger over your issues, but your up against all the evidence. Here is what he saids… “These example set forth the NT evidence that ‘oude’ joins terms that denote act

Mark, To just use Pinklight as an example, yes, she has asked you why you have an issue with believing that the salvation of the woman might be conditional on her husband. I do not have a problem wi

Why have you set things up on this blog so that biblical references are automatically linked to the website of ESV, a version which (as documented at [the Better Bibles Blog](http://englishbibles.blog

God does not contradict itself and if I am seeing a contradiction in Scripture then the problem is with MY interpretation, NOT with God’s Word!!! I could see QUITE CLEARLY other examples of women exer

Craig, Prof Catherine Kroeger has written about the possible sexual meaning of authentein. <http://www.godswordtowomen.org/kroeger_ancient_heresies.htm> > But what can the term authentein imply in

Hi Cheryl I would have thought the usage of the present text in [Romans 6:11](logos4:///Bible/Ro 6.11) is exactly in line with what I was saying about [Eph 2:5](logos4:///Bible/Eph 2.5). In the Roma

Hi Kay, I am so glad you have responded, and equally glad that you agree that context is important. However you are making a serious error by assuming that ‘presbyterio’ always should translate ‘elde

Craig, Thanks for your questions. Under question #1: The Greek term asthenes can refer to weak or powerless. The grammar is “comparative” which doesn’t mean that this is her essence, but in compar

Thanks so much for your patience with me. I had some ideas swirling around but I have only a rudimentary greek training and rely on strong’s and the interlinear. I don’t know the conjugations of verbs

Don: “In Greek the presence of the definite article makes the noun definite, but the absence of the definite article does NOT necessarily make the noun indefinite, see Wallace “Greek Grammar Beyond th

“I’m some what in agreement with you about interpretation. Thus a good proper solid exegesis is required. It is not simply good enough to say…’well that doesn’t apply ot us anymore’, nor is it excepta

Dave (19) Mark and TL Not going to quote all of you in the interest of time. TL keeps saying hupotasso is voluntarily arranging under someone else. Mark has given us the definition from BAGD- “subor

Well, Cheryl, I’m sorry to learn that Chris, when he couldn’t defeat you on the “home field,” had to make a playing field of his own, where he plays against “straw women and straw men,” which are noth

I just finished reading through both postings by Mark, as well as their respective comments. And I’m wondering if I should abandon the line of argument I began in Comment #168 on this posting, and try

#22 Cindy K, > I intended to say more directly before that I don’t think that it is expressly “pagan” to believe that the “they” of [Genesis 1:27](logos4:///Bible/Ge 1.27) means that there was one pe

Don, Your statement is beautiful.  I really don’t understand the “my way or the highway” approach to some of these matters that some camps hold, and it applies to a great many different doctrines, no

Lin, You said: This is because ‘desire’ is not a good translation and takes us into all kinds of error and problems on both sides of egal/comp. God warned Eve that she would turn to her husband an

Mark, You write: “I obviously disagree with you that Adam is not the leader in [Gen 1](logos4:///Bible/Ge 1)-3. You talked about the ‘them’ of [Gen 1](logos4:///Bible/Ge 1) and how both genders were

Craig, I value your questions and I think that others do as well. The difference between you and some others who come here is that you appear to be genuinely interested in seeing both sides and you

Hi everyone, I have been having a discussion about [1 Tim 2](logos4:///Bible/1Ti 2) with a comp friend. He is in 1st year theological college. He asked his Greek lecturer about some of the things I

Cheryl, I’m sure you will agree that our English grammar construction and ancient Koine Greek grammar construction may not always be the same. I am relying on the scholarship of Phillip Payne, author

Hi folks, wow, what a lot of good comments! I will be popping in and out as I am able since this is a really busy time for me. NN, you said: > And if you read what I wrote above – the proper use of

@227 Kristen, You asked: > Would Paul really be saying that only those women who claim to have maturity and are godly examples, should be dressing modestly? That only they should be focusing on inn

#70 Mark, You said: > However, why do you assume therefore that authority cannot exist? Why is it, that you actually contradict the meaning of this verb? The meaning of the Greek verb does not for

Mark said: “I am still interested to know why you think ’one woman man’ is generic (and thus includes female overseers) and yet why Paul needs to single out ’gyne’ in verse 11 since in your own admi

Hi Cheryl, thanks for responding. Here are answers to your specific questions: //He is not praying for just “these alone” (the disciples) but also for those who believe (present tense) because of thei

Cheryl says in her blog post “What does [1 Timothy 2:11-15](logos4:///Bible/1Ti 2.11-15)?” under point #17: “The grammar f[rom 1](logos4:///Bible/Ro 1) Timothy 2:15 requires the identification of a si

Paula, Good point. We must take into consideration that KJV translators were laboring under a church/state mentality. Cheryl, one reason you may not have gotten a posted question about Hebrews is be

Kephale God doesn’t base His word on pagan meanings, though they may be good for a ball park understanding. Usage must fit the heart and context of scriptures. Two things we must understand about kep

CLC This is how I’m seeing it now. I do reserve the right to be wrong. I’ve changed my mind a few times after I knew I really knew it all. ;o) We are warned that some will preach another Jesus.

Paula #1, I disagree that the only reason for the wife’s submission is to win over an unsaved husband. [1 Peter 3:1](logos4:///Bible/1Pe 3.1) starts with literally “in like manner” linking it to wha

Michael, > I am not saying that individual days are equal lengths, only that they are unspecified lengths of time but distinct periods. I didn’t say they were equal in length, but that the days woul

Lmb, Good to have you engage in the conversation. Let me respond to your comment. You said “Actually it isn’t a stretch at all. In Greek a masculine plural is the grammatical form used for a group

TL, E-sword has some good Greek tools. You can down load it here <http://www.e-sword.net/downloads.html> As far as hegeomai here are some lexical meanings. Unfortunately my blog won’t all foreign c

Sam, I don’t think that these kinds of conversations expose ignorance at all. I think they are wonderful at helping us as Christians to experience “iron sharpening ironâ€. When I first understoo

To continue to Mark, > Since this is the case, we ought to be very cautious of people who think they have a flawless exegesis of this passage. History should tell us otherwise. No need to be cautiou

#64 truthseeker, > She cannot logically be Eve, the ’saved’ cannot mean original salvation, so childbirth taking the meaning of ‘being raised up in the faith’ makes the most sense. In Paul’s epistle

Yes, Paul was well educated in the Greek society, but were his readers? Considering that the majority of the early Christians were illiterate slaves, it is a stretch to say that the readers would have

LNE, You also asked: > How is it proper to render this imperative verb as merely permission to have her hair shaved, as if it said “If a woman is not covering her head, let her also be permitted [b

Mark, you said: > I have agreed with you that the present indicate can have a linear function. However as I have stated, that is not always the case. The context, adverbs etc determine it’s function

Parden me ladies. You all have a male listening. { ; o (…. You are using the word “men” and “church” alot. “”Or maybe “the presence of men” makes the situation ungodly, because only with their pre

Just working out some responses to Mark that I can send. Any thoughts are welcome. Mark said > I think egals have reconstructed ‘submit’ to mean something like ‘voluntarily yielding our own desires

Mark, You said: > They are not identical so which one is TRULY Jesus words. I too agree that the spirit helped them remember, but i also relaise that the nitended audience of Matthew is not the int

Martin #26, > I’m just wondering why Paul didn’t mention women in particular in verses 1-7. The question then is why would Paul mention women in verse 11 but not in verses 1 – 7? I don’t know why Pa

Gazza, What you need to realise is that the Koine Greek present tense, is not the same as the English present tense. So therefore if a greek verb is in the present tense, it does not neccessarily imp

Mark, “masculine” words in Greek do not mean the word is masculine. That’s a common mistake Enlish speakers make. The gender of a noun is part of the language; it doesn’t mean a “masculine” word there

Okay, I’m back and just going to catch up on gengwall’s comments that I didn’t address. Gengwall @210 you said: > Yes – I’m saying that maybe Paul wanted Timothy to understand vs. 11 and 12 to mean

Well, well, well… First I’ll just dump my hasty notes I took as I listened, then post my comments: M– one woman not fit context of [1 Tim 1](logos4:///Bible/1Ti 1)-2 C– subject can change, not an i

Well, well, well… First I’ll just dump my hasty notes I took as I listened, then post my comments: M– one woman not fit context of [1 Tim 1](logos4:///Bible/1Ti 1)-2 C– subject can change, not an i

Mark, you said, “I agree submission is something we do. A wife is told to submit to her husband. She has to choose to do it, it cannot be demanded by the husband. God demands it, not the husband. But

@ Mark “As I understand [1 Tim 2:8-15](logos4:///Bible/1Ti 2.8-15), the teaching restricted is that linked with authority in the public congregational setting. That is, the preaching from the pulpit s

one passage: The mistranslation hinges on the Greek verb, authentein. I have been a pastor for 35 years and a Christian for 45 years. I now have a house church and left the big church with all its i

Well, it seems the discussion with Mark has gone to quite some length. And I’m sorry got to it much later than Lin did; I wish I could have commented on some of these points myself. But I think everyo

Hey Cheryl, I am continuing to read through all your archives. Lots of food for thought – thank you for such stimulating discussions! Some questions/comments I have regarding this particular post

*“In regards to the statement in verse 35: “As also saith the Law”* *Does not find its root in the oral law. Its inception comes from [Genesis 3:16](logos4:///Bible/Ge 3.16):* *To the woman He sai

Cheryl, My apologies – I simply felt that the length & formatting of the discussion made it potentially cumbersome to put here as a comment – but per your request here is the cut and paste. [A Paga

We have gone through this exercise before but it bears repeating to help make the *entire* passage “clear”, if for no one else, then for Mike Seaver. Instead of paraphrasing as we have done in the pas

Craig, Thanks for thinking out loud and answering your own question! Your answer is very good. I would only add an answer that is referenced in the passage but Paul saying (vs 14) And it was not Ada

Peter, you said: So, if “driving away” can be said to a physical, earthly rejection of anyone who would try to follow him – with wrong motivation, it takes on a different nuance than does the judgemen

I am all a twitter! This is great dialog. My take on the context and Sarah’s example follows Paula’s a little, with some of truthseekers insight included. Let me lay it out. I love Cheryl’s synopsis

LOL – I feel my contribution at this point is equivalent to adding 30 seconds to “Lawrence of Arabia”. Never the less, here goes. This refers to Cheryl’s post 89 above. I agree whole heartedly with

@Kristen 86 Thank you so much for your excellent link regarding “a one woman man” typically translated as “the husband of one wife”! I love it! Here is an excerpt: “Two of the most prominent comp

Cheryl first of all look at my post #241 and then im sure you will see relevant bible passage that show that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob all call God LORD, not to mention all the other people, the slave,

There are some interesting points that most people miss in [1 Tim. 3](logos4:///Bible/1Ti 3). It starts off with pistos ho logos – faithful is the Word. Paul continues with tis episkopE oregO kabos er